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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Casting small ali parts (UK)

I know that someone was making new cast ali top water elbows for A-series engines a while ago and there was a sudden flood of them. Does anyone on here have any experience of having such things made? I need to have a specialised one made, possibly a batch of them.

I'm guessing David Billington might be here soon but in the meantime if anyone has some good pointers then I'd be most grateful.
r thomas

Maybe something like this?

http://www.walmay-castings.co.uk/
Dave O'Neill2

I want to say it was a company called ashely...but im not 100%

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hark is it a bird , is it a plane, no just me DJB, nice to think people think I may have some good input on subjects.

Rob I have had a number of small castings done by local foundries over the years in aluminium and cast iron and and always made my own patterns but haven't required cores yet but that's no big deal to make a core mould. The patterns are woodwork and I've used body filler for fillets and celly paint for a good finish and quick drying, one foundry guy thought the pattern was plastic from the feel and weight but just wood, filler and paint. I would look and see if you have any local foundries in your area and run what you want to do by them and see what they have to say, always nice to chat with someone in the know to get their input. Both foundries that I have used in the past are now closed but I still have Novacast just down the road http://www.novacast.co.uk/ . Lost foam might be an idea for a one off if you can make an expanded polystyrene pattern and they're allowed to do it, basically the foam is surrounded by the mould material and the metal burns the foam out as it's poured. It is a production as well as one off process but burning polystyrene produced nasty things so I expect fume extraction/trapping would be required.
David Billington

Prop,
the name you were thinking of was Ashley Hinton, he does new sat housing 12G1902 for X-flow rads but I'd imagine that it's the earlier elbow that's wanted here
Nigel Atkins

Thanks, guys.

Emails off to walmay and Novacast, along with Harling foundries.
I'm assuming it will be a financially painful exercise but the only other option, backyard casting, seems a little dangerous .



r thomas

Would it not be easier and potentially similar cost just to CNC machine such a part from bar stock?

Casting seems like an awful lot of ol' fashioned faff! Or does it specifically have to be cast for concourse or something?

Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

I was going to suggest CNC. Also, or you can have a styrophone core made on CNC and used like david was suggesting...in the USA staples office supplies are taking on that roll...not in my town yet, but hoping soon

Thanks nigel... I was close, haha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Could you get it 3-D printed? Presumably not in alloy, but in a plastic and then cast from that?
Guy W

How about a 3D printer?
Dave O'Neill2

Malcolm. I don't know since I've never tried either method and not met anyone else who has, hence the request. I have the original casting which is now 60 years old and deeply pitted.
It's about 8 inches by 2 by 2 so quite a bit too big to knock one out from the solid with just my Dremel! :o)
r thomas

Hi

What vehicle or application is it for? There may be an owners club or specialist supplier that has already done a small batch?

Might be worth phoning: http://www.uk-racing-castings.co.uk/castings_contents.htm

Or http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/index.htm

I wonder who Raceline use for foundry and machining work: http://www.raceline.co.uk/products/part_section.asp?SectionID=35&CategoryID=2

I reckon the Vintage Sports Car Club (VSCC) racing fraternity will have network of people and small companies that do such low volume work, as well as owners clubs such as those for chain gang Fraser Nashes. may be worth posting on their email forums, as well as the Uphill Racers technical forum to pick up on people building hillclimb cars and modifying car and bike engine installations to suit. Also the vintage bike community and sidecar racers - bound to be people making castings for Nortons, BSAs etc.

Where in UK are you?

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Back yard casting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJ2jMZ-gaI

I'm still looking for someone to cut, drill and tap Ti plate!
Daniel Stapleton

Yes. Youtube is good for inspirational videos. By the time you've bought the kitty litter for the casting clay, made the wooden box, welded up the stainless crucible, smashed up the aluminium pieces etc etc it might well cost more than having it made. Problem is finding out a sensible 'guide' price before making the telephone calls.
There are only a couple of dozen of these engines around and spares are hard to find. Nobody is selling! No suprising when the head alone will almost double the power output of the engine and raise the top speed by almost 20mph.



r thomas

I did think about trying to TIG a new piece on but I'd have to grind out so much that it might not survive. It only seems to have corroded on just this one piece.


r thomas

Rob,

If I was making a castable furnace I wouldn't bother with the kitty litter stuff as much better commercial castables are available fairly cheaply.

For occasional use I would use something like Superwool fibre blanket. Make an outer former out of sheet metal or even chicken wire, line it with a couple of inches of fibre blanket, put some insulating fire brick in the bottom and use a propane torch for heat. Get the flame in near the base and tangentially so it runs round the crucible. They used something of the sort to melt copper on Kevin Mccloud's Man Made Home series 2 and that requires a lot more heat than aluminium. IIRC aluminium melts in the high 600Cs so a bit more required for casting http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html . You don't need a SS crucible, plenty use heavy wall steel pipe, whichever you use it should be lined with a refractory wash as otherwise the aluminium will dissolve the steel. You also need to think about degassing to remove dissolved hydrogen which leads to porosity, this is usually done with a chlorine containing compound to scavenge the hydrogen and liberates HCl gas so you want well ventilated and upwind. If you were local I've got most of the materials required down the workshop like fibre blanket, IFB, refractory mortar for the wash.
David Billington

In theory you need to allow for shrinkage when producing a pattern for casting, but I wonder if you could get away with using filler to build-up the corroded areas on the original component, then get a foundry to use this as the pattern for casting a new one (or batch of new ones)? Perhaps also temporarily fill the bolt holes so you can clean them out and use them as a jig for marking/drilling the holes on the new castings (rather than trying to cast the holes).

Jonathan Severn

Thanks guys.

Only Novacast has replied and that was to say that they aren't interested (in 10 words or less)

If I can't get anywhere with welding up a new one the I might have to try home casting, in which case I might take a drive over Bristol way.

David. I'll bring chocolate biscuits. :o)

The good news is that this cylinderhead turns out to be one of the rare racing versions of the conversion. 9.5:1 as cast, compared to the 6:1 of the standard engine. Definitely worth getting it running again.
r thomas

I dread to think what they'll charge, but I'd be cheeky and ring up

http://www.gwcast.com/en/

or these guys

http://www.haworthcastings.co.uk

If the quantity is too small for them, ask if they know someone - they will have a 'favourite prototype shop' !!


Malc
Malc Gilliver

Rob,

I forgot to mention that due to the relatively low melting point of aluminium you ought to be able to melt it in a wood fire and there is a video on youtube of some being melted in a metal can filled with charcoal using blown air.

Consider heat treating the casting before machining as in the as cast state aluminium can be gummy and horrible to machine and heat treatment can transform that.
David Billington

Rob

Did you try gettiing a quote from the following two companies that specialise in making one off bits from old car components?

http://www.uk-racing-castings.co.uk/castings_contents.htm

http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/index.htm

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

To really amp up the heat... a hand held hair dryer appearntly works best at the base. it adds air to the burning propane and makes it hotter

The good you tubes ive seen say to use "green sand" for making castings... appeartly it contains a small bit of oil


Id love to do some back yard foundry work...im not sure id want to go beyound aluminum....keeping it simple would be cool, id think just being causcious and thinking it thur, this could be fairly safe project to take on

Ive seen videos of aluminium soda/beer cans do well, but id love to try old abondaned aluminum cly heads in a salvage yard, cut up into small chunks, that way, they are already bound with funny metals and so should still be fairly strong when remelted and cast

I cant imagine something like this is legal and unregulated here in the states, someone is going to cry about it

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Don't rule out cold casting in JB Weld. This would be a cheap and effective way to restore what you have without calling on professional services. I've used it to make up surfaces on a corroded elbow as well as make repairs to lost and broken castings on carbs and an inlet manifold. Other than a slight colour shift it's made them as good as new.
Fergus

At last I'm getting somewhere.

Harling Foundries (Reeeeally nice people) say they'll copy mine for about £40 to £60 depending on difficulty. Not the cheapest option but sensible pricing. Of all the companies all listed above, 2 email replies, 3 more phonecalls and no suggested prices so I've gone with Harlings.

I couldn't find Bentonite in small quantities so the whole home-casting project is a reserve should Harling not be able to help out. I've reprofiled and filled the original to allow for some shrinkage during casting and they say I should expect to have to finish the insides of the casting since it may be a bu66er to cast the innards. Not a big problem for Mr Dremel!

My wife is the owner of the car and she demands perfection as the minimum standard. (See below...not good enough...do it again)

r thomas

Rob,

Good luck with Harling.

http://anvils.co.uk/products/view/401?cat=33

I think the Mansfield red can be used as is, we use it for casting glass into in open face moulds.

Green sand

http://anvils.co.uk/products/view/712?cat=33

Also some kitty litter is largely bentonite clay based so maybe that could be pounded to a powder and used.
David Billington

Rob,

Lots of Calcium Bentonite on ebay which is the binder for green sand mentioned here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite#Binder
David Billington

It looks like you are sorted but here is a contact a friend has suggested:

http://www.vintagemgparts.com/
D Plumb

Rob,
Do you want to come over and polish my wife's kitchen floor. If the standards in your last photograph aren't good enough for Mrs T. you'd be more than welcome to bring your "unacceptable" levels of attention to detail round ours!
Good luck with the casting. Is this for that lovely little Alta head?
Matt1275Bucks

Definatly brings new meaning to the phrase....

" Its good enough for the women we sleep with "

I hope she is worth all the perfection. Because she would NOT like me...haha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Whilst waiting for the paint to dry on the bondo-bodged water outlet I decided to have a quick bash at some 6082 ali tube and some plate. 4043 Tig rods.
I annealed the living daylights out of the tube, slit it and then beat it round the ball end of a hammer to get the right shape. welded onto the plate it will suffice if the original gets lost in the post or during casting.
Obviously it has merely had a lick from a grinder and needs polishing a bit!

r thomas

Its getting there

I do like the long set JB weld (2 part epoxy idea)

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Getting there.

Original casting blasted, filled, painted and ready to go away.

Meanwhile, new one fabricated, just in case. I just need to drill the holes and tidy up the edges to get a good fit for the gasket.

r thomas

Getting closer.

I've still got to find a sensible answer to the question of how to protect the insides from corrosion. Duralac slopped around the inside faces? Ideally something durable, waterproof, heatproof and flexible.

r thomas

Powder coat paint possiable

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Add a corrosion inhibitor to the coolant ?
Malc Gilliver

Rob,

Looking good! what welder do you have?
David Billington

I don't think I'd bother having a new one cast, given what you've managed to knock up this week already!
Matt1275Bucks

I bought an R-Tech 160a TIG and their small Plasma cutter over the last few years. Great service is what made me buy from them. I had a small fault after the warranty ran out but they paid for a courier to collect it, fixed it and sent it back within 3 days. No charge!

Malc. I couldn't ensure that the inside edges of the welds are good so there might be some areas susceptible to corrosion starting. I've had a look at some surplus stock Belzona sealant stuff (Belzona 2121?) that someone has offered. I'd rather have belt AND braces on this engine. Cost me a fortune to acquire it!

Is anyone on here a Belzona user?
r thomas

Zircotec might be worth a call. They plasma-spray ceramic coatings on exhaust manifolds, but they also apply other coatings to various components.
http://www.zircotec.com
Jonathan Severn

This thread was discussed between 07/02/2014 and 14/02/2014

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