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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Copper washers

Maintenance schedule dictates replacement of brake hoses. What does the Team think about the need to anneal the necessary copper washers?. Thanks...Dave
David Cox

I wouldn't anneal new ones but have often in the past had to reuse copper washers in which case its so easy to anneal the question is why would one not!
GuyW

David. It is sometimes, but not always, necessary to anneal new copper washers. On the other hand, it only takes a few minutes to do so. As a result, I heat both old (reused) and new copper washers in a propane tourch until they are bright red, then drop them into a pan of water. Washers can be held in needle nosed pliers, or on a piece if wire with the wire held in pliers. The latter does not cause a possible loss of temper in the pliers and ensures even heating so that the entire washer is annealed.

Les
Les Bengtson

Interesting, Les. I never quench small copper items like washers.

Years ago I had a BSA M21 motorbike with a side valve engine. I always carried a spare solid copper head gasket as it wasn't uncommon on an outing for it to start leaking. I could change it at the roadside, juggling with the hot head stud nuts. The old gasket would get annealed ready for use again. On several occasions I would also dress the gasket with a hammer on an anvil to get rid of bumps and ridges as it was being heated up. Still never quenched those.
I thought quenching made them hard and brittle?
GuyW

Metallurgy of copper is different to iron/ steel, Guy...heating/ quenching the former renders the material softer, improving its sealing characteristics. It work hardens but the pliable condition can be restored by another heat/ quench cycle. Dave
David Cox

Copper can be annealed by either quenching or just leaving to cool.

richard b

Yes, I began to doubt myself that I had been doing it wrong for the last 60 years! I checked, and seems copper can be quenched, but doesn't need to be.
GuyW

Guy--The main reason to quench the hot copper washer is because it allows it to be quickly dried, then used immediately. Depending on how large the copper workpiece is, it can sometimes take a while to cool. Hence, dropping the workpiece into water ensures it cools quickly and removes some of the oxidation that forms as the copper is heated.

Les
Les Bengtson

Consider the source of the washers.
Cheap ones will have been stamped out of sheet in a shed in China with worn out dies and the sheet material will have been rolled out from recycled scrap. They will be work hardened right out of the box.
Annealing takes next to no time. It's a no-brainer.
Greybeard

Interesting. I seem to remember having very slight brake fluid seepage from new washers (and hoses). That would explain it Grey.
Bill Bretherton

The quench for copper boiler smithing etc was a dilute acid ISTR Sulphuric? But rather nasty stuff !

Now we generally use Citric Acid - much safer !!!
- lemon juice but cheaper to get the dry power that is also used as a household cleaner I’m told.

All your copper / brass comes out really shiny after a short dip ! Great after silver soldering but I quench in cold water first, then pickle in the Citric acid.
Occasionally needs a light scrub but cleans to a shine !
richard b

A mildly funny story about copper washers.
I live in a small seaport which has a NATO refuelling facility and one Sunday morning I got a phone call from Mrs GBs nephew who was at the time a CPO engineer on a Royal Navy minehunter. Good bloke.
Have you got any copper washers?
Sure, sh×tloads. What size? What's it for?
Dunno, we only have a plastic ruler. It's for the air conditioning. Looks about 22mm.
Okay probably seven eighths then. Let me have a looksee.

Later.
Sorry Steve I haven't got any but I'll make you a couple.
Cheers. Captain has agreed to delay sailing.

(Aaargh 🤯 yikes! No pressure then...!)

I made and annealed a few and delivered them at 0600 Monday, plus gave him a spare six inch vernier.

(Q. How do you read this?
A. Don't have time to show you - try YouTube mate.)

The ship sailed an hour or two later, on deployment to the Persian Gulf as it turned out. Probably why they were keen for the AC.

Six or so weeks later I got a letter with "Royal Navy" on the envelope. I'd forgotten all about it, but it was the CO thanking me for the "vital support to Her Majesty's vessel", which was kind of him but really? For a few washers made from scrap?
God bless the Navy. Trundling around the world saving civilisation with home made washers.
Probably still have the letter somewhere.
Greybeard

Checked Sulphuric it was - dangerous stuff even when diluted - need lots of protective gear - even then I only used it when on a summer school college boilersmithing course - many many years ago when H and Safety was rather lacking ! Didn’t like it even then.

Now only use the Citric acid solution.
richard b

Acid pickling removes any oxidation that will occur on heating.

Thanks for all input. Dave
David Cox

Brilliant story Greybeard!
Navy Lark meets Vital Spark quality ! 😂😂
GuyW

Good job Captain Greybeard-
It always amuses me how many tradies can't read verniers properly or at all. I think everyone has been spoilt with digital and dial type calipers and forgotten how to read the original scale type. They're quite acurate used properly.
Probably a generational thing, where once one generation has gone through reading dials and digits then that becomes the norm and sadly the original ways get lost. Until their batteries go flat,then what do they do.

willy
William Revit

copper washer -- lol

William Revit

Reading verniers - The other day I found my old slide rule from school days. It took me a while to recall how to read it, but eventually it did all come back to me! Quite complicated though. I also remember that when casio calculators first came out they were banned at our school completely.
GuyW

Ah, slide rules!.... takes me back
Part of the skill in using them IIRC was to estimate your answer...should it be 4, or 0.4 or 0.004 etc....they couldn't tell you where to place the decimal point...
David Cox

Guy, not just calculators banned in school. We were not allowed to take our own log books into exams in case you had written answers in them.

I always think that's the problem with kids today that because they use computers and calculators they are not used to estimating answers so have no idea if they have been given the right answer or not.

Trev
T Mason

Trev, I didn't mean just for exams, we weren't allowed calculators on the school premises! Anyone would think they were knives or firearms!
But agreed, not allowed out own log table books in exams.
GuyW

I can remember a lecturer of mine going to inordinate lengths in setting numerical exam questions so that the very last anti-log you needed to get to the final answer was a recognisable date from history: 1945, 1066 or the like.
Brilliant thread drift btw😄
David Cox

Guy, I realised you meant any time. Never had calculators when I was at school.

Trev
T Mason

Still have my slide rule. I've never owned a manual vernier so would struggle to read one now as I would have last used one about 1970. Like everyone else I have a digital one from Lidl - so much easier like digital multimeters 😉
Bill Bretherton

Had an instance some years back for substantiating the design of the steam generator anchors for Sizewell B that took an analysis team more than 3 months to complete and where on receiving their report I responded within a couple of minutes to advise they were out by a factor of 10 in the uplift deflection. My hand stress calc took less than 10 minutes and was basically load over area although I did use a calculator but it took them another 2 weeks to recheck their work and find their error. Rubbish in rubbish out !
S G KEIL

This thread was discussed between 20/08/2024 and 27/08/2024

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