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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - frontline front - camber

I suppose my frontline top bush is made of PTFE (Teflon®). What grease (if any) do I use for it?
I do have too much (3,5°) negative camber, can I correct it with ovalized holes in the frontline top unit. Offset bushes did not correct enough.

Flip





Flip Brühl

Flip,
The front line set up gives you increased negative camber compared to standard, remember to reset your toe in. I don't know how much extra camber you get.
If you ring frontline they should tell you what to expect.

Mike
M J Pearson

The first version of the FL kit was 2 degrees neg camber.

The 2nd (latest? ) version with the 'plastic' bushes, reduced this to 1 degree neg camber.
anamnesis

As with previous poster.

That's if the kit is correct and as advertised and do bear in mind this is to what you already have on the car before fitting.

Mine are 3.5° and 4.5° negative.
Nigel Atkins

Anam,
this will give you a laugh, a mate got a s/h barely used Frontline (mk2) front kit, one side was seized with rust and when he rang Frontline to see what he could do about it and what parts he needed they said they'd never heard of this before(!) and wanted a ridiculous amount of money for virtually a replacement kit.

He sorted it himself and suggested mine would probably be the same given the age of the kit. As I've seen there must be rust on the inside I guess he may well be right.
Nigel Atkins

ETA: if the bushes needed any grease I would have thought even Frontline would have provided the sachets of grease with the bush.

If they are SuperPro bushes then this from the FAQ section of the SuperPro website -

"Do you recommend using grease with SuperPro bushes?
In all the locations on a vehicle where bushes have a pivoting action, it is essential that grease is used. Due to the characteristics of Polyurethane, and the way in which the bushes behave, they start to act as bearings instead of just a gap filler, and as little friction in movement as possible is vital to avoid uncomfortable increases in Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). All SuperPro kits include grease where necessary; of course we do not include grease where it is not necessary for the performance of the component to do so."
https://www.superproeurope.com/faqs.cfm
Nigel Atkins

Igus bushes IIRC and anodised aluminium spindle. I think the problem is water getting in around the bolt and spindle causing dissimilar metal corrosion, IIRC Onno has one that has seized solid.
David Billington

Igus and Avo (dampers) are both companies in Northampton, I wonder who pointed out who to whom.

Onno couldn't have informed Frontline about his problem, or at least before my mate did, was it last year(?), or they'd have said they knew about the issue wouldn't they(?).
Nigel Atkins

I've mentioned what I consider is the problem to the company that make them for Frontline as I use them for laser profiling, whether it'll make any difference to the assembly procedure is another matter. Some decent grease around the bolt would go a long way to preventing it.
David Billington

Tank you warning me for rust. I will treat the inside of the tube with tectyl.
With the frontline kit, which I use for more than 10 years, I do have 3,5 degrees right and 2,5 degrees of negative camber left. I want to go to 2 degrees. Caster right was negative!!! Left was OK. I tried to change that with excenter Fulcrum Pins. The real thing is cutting and welding.

Flip
Flip Brühl

Nigel and Flip,

Have you done any measurements to check the accuracy of your suspension mountings as your camber values do sound excessive. I found 2 degrees negative worked well with 165/70 tyres but caused excessive wear to the inside of the tyres with 185/60 tyres and doing a lot of road miles.
David Billington

I had a similar responce ( edit response, although 'ponce' might better lol ) from FL when I wanted new oilite bushes for my mk1 kit. They wouldn't tell me how to get the bushes out, or tell me the sizes, or supply me with replacements. But of course they would sell me a very modestly discounted complete kit, if as I recall, I returned my old kit to them.

In the end Anthony Cutler I believe it was, gave me instructions for bush removal with a grease gun, and I found the sizes I need on bearings boys web site.

And for all that, my mk1 fl kit sits on my shelf, as I went back to a decent pair of lever arms. Maybe one day I'll get around to sorting the fl kit. But actually, I find the lever arms to be fine; at least until they are knackered. Then from what I read, as there are no decent new la shocks out there, I'll be forced to fix the fl kit.


anamnesis

David,
I've not measured anything, wouldn't know what or how to. If I could ever get to a stage where other stuff didn't need attention (often new fitted parts) I might find out.

Years ago with LA dampers the camber seemed fine, then FL changes, and further change of front springs to rectify one of the FL lies, then a couple of years ago the camber was measured with some device placed against the wheels but it's very obvious to even my wonky eyes.

Thinking about it it it couldn't have been last year when my mate was doing his FL kit and perhaps it was longer ago than the year before that, the years just disappear, you'd remember better than I.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I was wondering how you arrived at 3.5 and 4.5 negative, that a lot of camber, too much for a road car IMO ?

There's a fairly easy but very reliable way to measure your camber with a piece of strong cotton hanging down beside the centre of your wheel, and a accurate ruler or better still a vernier , I have attached the table showing the maths worked out.
I know from my own experience that the chassis can deviate a lot from what they are supposed to be. My own car has F/Line and negative camber trunnions fitted and it still did not achieve the 2 degrees I wanted, and to answer Flips question you can slot the bolt holes in the F/L baseplate to move it slightly , which was what I did to one side to get them roughly the same both sides, the slotted baseplate has never moved ......I keep an eye on it and its marked with paint pen so that I can see easily if its moved. I've had no problems with tyre wear, running 165/70-13.

Ian
Ian Webb 1973 GAN5

Hi Ian,
thanks for the info but when I tried Guy's bit of string method to set front wheel alignment I just couldn't be sure with my lack of aptitude and wonky eyes of measuring with string and metal tape measure to any accuracy.

JHL put a measuring frame on each wheel and got 3.5 and 4.5 but as I put even with my wonky eyes it's obvious the wheels lean a lot.

The wheels didn't use to lean noticeably when I had LA dampers or when the FL kit was fitted by FL with the 1" lower springs which I was assured by them would "only lower the car by half an inch or so" and on collection of the car and questioning of the low front told I was previously told "half to three-quarters of an inch". It was actually, surprise, surprise, 1" lower - but the wheels didn't seem to noticeably lean then, I can't think when I first noticed the lean.

Between sorting the nasty FL 5-speed gearbox botch installation, replacing the clutch components on it a number of times, topping up from its leaks, HGF and other bits on the car wheel lean is a low priority. If something is working, even if not as it should, it can wait wait.

Yes it is too much but if I hit enough potholes fast enough perhaps they'll straighten up. :)

Nigel Atkins

Nigel
I informed FL about the problem about 7-8years ago.
A friend had the original setup and FL was unwilling to supply new bronze bushes so we turned some and fitted grease points.
That set is fine to this day.

My plastic bush set did about 50K km and was found to be rotten solid and working their way through the arm.
A request for spare parts was met with silence.

Went back to leverarms with a PM top link and recently adjustable valves.
For me a more sympathetic and more fitting solution with proper spare parts supply.
O K

Yes not many know, realise or accept the true nature of the.

Even though the mate got nowhere when he rang them I think he thinks what I've told him about the way they have dealt with and the quality of their work is perhaps me misunderstanding or exaggerating even though he's know me long enough to know I've no need to make up or lair about such things.

Depends on how things go this year I might look at refurbing mine.


Nigel Atkins

Flip,

Looking at your 2nd pic of the upper arm it looks like there may be enough room at each end to put in some sort of seal, I'm thinking of a collar to grip the tube then a small bump like in a gaiter to allow for some compression and a face to press up against the inner face of the body bracket. It could be 3D printed in TPU (Thermoplastic Polyurethane) which is flexible and oil and grease resistant and available as 3D printer filament. I could look at it but would need detailed dimensions to investigate further.

Do those plastic bushes just run against the paint on the body bracket.
David Billington

I use a similar method to Ian, but with a spirit level instead of the string.
If the car leans to one side it will affect camber (increases (=more positive or less negative) on the side it leans to, decreases on the high side) so it is useful to distinguish between suspension mounts and body lean as contributing factors - if you want to correct it you need to lnow which to correct.
For that reason I always set the body up level before measuring (and already have the spirit kevel to hand)

For these small angles and the measurement method resolution, sin = tan = radians, so the radian to degree conversion figure of 57 degrees = 1 radian gives a quick way of converting to degrees if you dont have Ian's table to hand. (57 to nearest degree, but once again the decimal bits are below measurement redolution).
Calculation is 57 x(difference from plumb)/(distance between measurement positions).

It also pays to check wheels for any run-out, 1mm is not uncommon even in wires and rostyles that have avoided kerb contact. And 1mm will be about 1/6 degree.
Paul Walbran

An article is in the January edition of the Midget & Sprite Club magazine 'Mascot', by Mike Pearson on how he replaced the bushes with
Delrin and a new pivot pin.
Alan Anstead

Nigel

That sounds like an awful lot of camber. Have you been eating too many pies during lockdown? ;)
Chris Madge

Before this lockdown I was a reasonable weight but this time I've collected a lot of soft fat but it's certainly not insulating me.

I can't remember when I first noticed the camber but it was a few years ago. Perhaps if I tighten the bottom two wheel nuts on each side, that sounds like an FL engineering solution.
Nigel Atkins

Yes David: Igus bushes! thank you. There is no wear at all in those bushes as the bolt has worked as an axle. The bush was pivoting round the bolt!! I am going to use the old bushes wit a new bolt (and a lot of teflon? based grease, to prevent water ingress and rust)
Ian I 'll slot the holes.
To measure camber I use an old fashioned angle meter for rowing blades. The new ones are digital.

Flip

Flip Brühl

This thread was discussed between 31/01/2021 and 07/02/2021

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