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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - MK3 Sprite restoration

Made a start on my new MK3 Sprite.

This is an unfinished project done by an enthusiastic, but non technical DPO....

I bought it un running, no battery in it, could just test the (Datsun)engine worked by turning the crank pulley.
Brakes dont work, none of the electrics connected, worst paint job i have ever seen...
However has a nice interior and a grille and been de-bumpered.
compared to my other car she's an original example...

i'm going to use this thread to make a record of my, no doubt, eventful journey....
My aim is to make a nice looking, easy driving, original(ish) car.


Heres a picture, she looks quite nice from a distance and the rust wise not bad at all (so i think at this stage !)



Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

I made a start today, brakes and suspension first i think, if i start on the engine then the temptation will be to give her a test.....

First thing is that the front brakes are drums but they should be disks...

Second thing is the steering arms dont look correct and the angle of the rod ends to the steering rack looks too 'strained'.

Ive never dealt with spridget drum brakes before... are these steering arms normal ? are they simply on back to front or have they been bent ?
seem to be the same on both sides.

(yes thats my foot ;-) )




Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

'inner pivot pins' appear to have been 'modified' with the flange of the rubber bush on the outside of the body flange...



Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Whats this big nut on the end of the fulcrum pin ?
is this another 'modification' ?

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Steering arms are not correct.
Trevor Jessie

The drums look odd to me, are they 7" or has someone fitted drums from another car, maybe A40 which IIRC are larger.
David Billington

Yep, the steering arms are incorrect. Is the rack original? or have the arms been changed to accommodate the drums? The nut on the end of the wishbone is a modification. The nut on the kingpin should be either castellated or Self locking and there should be a castellated nut on the upper link through the shock absorber.

Looks like you will have your work cut out sorting the suspension and the brakes to bring it back to some sort of originality not the least being finding the bits!
Bob Beaumont

yep, 8 1/4" diameter..
with some nice grooves also

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

groovey

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Rack looks original, but not given it a great amount of looking at...
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Brakes from a Morris Minor !
off to a good start then....

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/brake-drum-front-8-ata7154.html?assoc=135990

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

At least the Moggie hub has the same wheel bearings as the Sprite disc hub!
Bob Beaumont

Oh thats a relief then !... ;-)
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

The steering arms - apart from being bent - also look to be longer than normal, which will reduce your turning circle and effectively give you 'slower' steering.

Apart from what others have mentioned, the kingpin also seems to protrude a long way through the nut.
Dave O'Neill 2

Considering your in tiehland (not exactly the mg parts capitol of planet mars) id imagine this is just the beginning... be easy on the PO even you said this was to be expected ... you knew this going in. In these situations you have to work with whats avialable

Im looking forward to the reinovation

Prop
1 Paper

Andy,

seems your uprated brakes (nice grooves btw) are an approved SVRA modification - get you LOL :)

http://www.svra.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Austin_Healey-Sprite_MG-Midget-12-2015.pdf
Jeremy T2


"Dave O'Neill:
The steering arms - apart from being bent - also look to be longer than normal, which will reduce your turning circle and effectively give you 'slower' steering."

Worse still if the steering arms are the wrong length, won't that mess the ackerman geometry up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry

Jim

J Smith

Yes, I think the geometry will be well messed up. The track rods would appear to be shorter than normal, so there's a lot going on there!
Dave O'Neill 2

Andy, it might be Austin (Cambridge) A40 front suspension.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-CAMBRIDGE-A40-A50-KING-PIN-KIT-X2-FRONT-SUSPENSION-BUSH-KIT-X1-/291112796824

Rob
MG Moneypit

" it might be Austin (Cambridge) A40 front suspension"

Indeed. Looking at it again, the wishbone has been widened.

Dave O'Neill 2

Well I'm not afraid of mods. Just need them to be safe and work.
I'll pull the whole assembly off, clean it and see what I have.
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Front suspension and brakes off, Left side.

Some rubber seating on the spring, never had this on my other car...


Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Fulcrum pin modification from underneath wishbone.
this front section obviously had some welded bushes put in.

Looks like a good idea to me, replaceable fulcrum pin bushes.....

The rest of the wishbone looks original early type without the ARB holes

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Brakes from the front

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Brakes from the back showing the stubshaft/upright...

Is this a proper spridget item ?

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Steering arm, bent and brazed,

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

The stubaxle looks like the early drum set up from a frogeye/A35/A40 (farina)but I wonder if it could be from an A60? The brake looks like morris minor. The steering arm is very odd.

It all looks quite tired.........
Bob Beaumont

Andy,

Looking at that I would have thought there should be something to lock the fulcrum pin bushes in place, there doesn't appear to be anything in your picture. Having found a picture of the A40 suspension on the web it shows each should have a cotter pin like that in the bottom of the kingpin to lock the bushes.
David Billington

Andy,
photos are always very useful but as the components look similar to Spridget ones measurements might also help.

The stubshaft/upright doesn't look original to me and I wonder (as a non-technical person) if the components you have might alter the very sweet steering of a Spridget and the handling and geometry at the front.

The front springs would have originally been either a freelength of *9.4" (238.8mmm) or *from Jan '66, 9.59" (243.6mm), both 271 lbsin (but uprated lbs helps).

The wishbones should have the ARB holes I'd have thought as it was an *optional extra from Jan '64 - a ARB is one of the best and most cost effective improvement to the handling of a Spridget in otherwise good running condition.

I know out of necessity and preference your Spridgets won't be fully standard you still might find useful and interest having a copy of Terry Horler's book.

*info from Original Sprite & Midget The Restorer’s Guide by Terry Horler –
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1906133336

N Atkins

Looking at posting Posted 25 January 2017 at 20:55:50 UK time there does appear to be something locating the fulcrum pin.

The tyre on top of the spring is interesting. I asked a question some time ago about whether putting something similar on to of the spring would effect the amount of noise transmitted to the body. On a Spridget noise from the suspension passes through bushes except there is a noise path from the bottom wishbone, through the spring direct to the body. Just a thought.

Rob
MG Moneypit

Good grief what a mess....

I think your best option is to part this out and pocket the cash.... if you where in the USA / UK then this is fixable but being your in Thailand...the shipping cost alone of heavy parts is going to be prohibitive

If your going to stay with this its just going to be brutally expensive ...i think based on the photos the whole front end has to be replaced its just so tired worn out and butchered

Or ... re engeenir a whole new expermential front end

Not to mention you got alot of body work and paint

And we havent even seen the rest of the car

As is yiur probably at $5000 usa money for the front end plus body and paint and interior and shipping cost

Prop
1 Paper

I'm not sure things are quite as bad as Prop has put and I think Andy will get things round.

I wonder if the steering rack/rod/wheel might be other than Spridget too, that's not to say the current set wouldn't work (if perhaps not as sweet as a standard Spridget set up).

How deep the project goes depends on what is found on the rest of the car but a good basis seems to be there so far. I'm not sure what cost Prop is referring to but being in Thailand will give pluses and minuses and alternatives and modifications and only Andy knows if it's worth it to him, after all monetary costs are only one consideration and element of Spridget ownership.
N Atkins

Spring is 10 5/8" long and 4" outside diameter.

Looking at the other side today to see if its the same...
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

yep, same on the other side...

Heres a picture of the master cyl, is this familiar to anyone ?

It has just one output which goes to a brake booster which looks exactly like the one in the Moss catalogue.

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Don't recognise the m/cyl - it should have the twin-piston version with single common reservoir for both clutch and brakes.
Has the clutch been converted to cable, I can't quite see what it's connected to?
The servo is pretty common-looking as there's very few aftermarket servo manufacturers. Whether it's required or not is a moot point; IMO it isn't.

davidsmith

Dave, Yes, it has the datsun engine and gearbox, with cable clutch. Master cyl probably came from somewhere else, but it does fit nicely.

For the servo, i agree, i don't have one on my frog, but as its already there and as long as it works, i'll use it.

Looking at costs to rebuild front end and brakes (ignoring steering rack for the moment.)
...
i see basically 3 choices..

1. Buy all new stuff from Moss (or try and get good 2nd hand) and return everything to std with disk brakes.
Everything except the steering arms is available from Moss.

2. Use the MM brakes (i have been quoted a price of about 150 pounds from Bull Motif for new drums, slaves, springs,shoes etc) and buy new wishbones, bushes, fulcrum pins etc

3. Go for broke and buy a nice JLH big brake set that comes with hubs , bearing , calipers, disks etc. Put that on my frog (my higher powered fun car) and transsfer the std disk brakes from frog to sprite.

I expect with some shopping around and conversations with Peter May/Magic Midget etc then i would be able to get the same parts as from Moss but at better price...together with some good advice.

For the steering arms, i'll either try and get some 2nd hand, or make my own.
I have the later type on the frog that i can copy from.




JLH if you see this , please check your website, i couldnt get on it this morning so have gone from memory for the details i am putting here, please correct me if i am wrong.



Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Steering rack looks original and in good condition, apart from the tie rods having been shortened and threaded all the way down.

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

shortened tie rod,
ill get a shaft extender machined up to fix this.

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

OK, now i understand about the steering rack and arms...
The car needed new TRE's. They are not available in Thailand (i know this as i had to import some for the frog).
The guys in the garage got the closest they could, which is M14.
They cut the tie rod shorter so that they could then thread it M14 to match the TRE.
Then they turned the steering arms over so they pointed inwards rather than outwards to make up for the shortened tie rod.
Of course then the tapered hole in the arm is the wrong way up, they probably couldnt get the wheel on with the TRE upside down so then cut off the end of the arm, turned it around and rewelded it on again.

signed Inspector Morse...

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

good sleuthing!
I have a spare pair of steering arms for the Morris rack if/when you need them, also Peter May should have spares as I sold him some a while back. New tie-rods might be a bigger problem although s/hand ones are plentiful here.
davidsmith

I'm sure I saw a pair of NOS tie-rods on ebay earlier in the week. I'm at work at the mo and not allowed ebay access.

A really interesting bit of detective work going on here. Ingenuity unlimited it seems.

I could also do with a pair of steering arms if there are any going spare. BTA648 and BTA649. I have an add in the classified section but so far the response has been somewhat underwhelming.

Rob
MG Moneypit

"Then they turned the steering arms over so they pointed inwards rather than outwards to make up for the shortened tie rod."

Wow! - That must have made the handling 'interesting' My understanding of doing that would mean that when turning a corner, the outer wheel would be steering sharper than the inner wheel....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry

"...This was achieved by making the linkage not a simple parallelogram, but by making the length of the track rod (the moving link between the hubs) shorter than that of the axle, so that the steering arms of the hubs appeared to "toe out". As the steering moved, the wheels turned according to Ackermann, with the inner wheel turning further.

****If the track rod is placed ahead of the axle, it should instead be longer in comparison, thus preserving this same 'toe out'.****"
J Smith

Yes I don't think its been driven much since that work was done.
There are 2 mm deep grooves in the drums but hardly a mark at the corresponding place on the shoes.
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Andy,
I thought the front springs looked different, and longer but the angle of the photo might have been deceptive. The car looks as if it sits quite well in the photo so perhaps the springs are softer unless the contents of the engine bay are a lot heavier.

From Terry Horler's book - "The coil springs were made from 1/2" (12.7mm) diameter spring steel and were wound to give seven working coils".

I'd have thought (but could well be wrong) that there'd be places out your way to make traditional springs but if not I'd thoroughly recommend Magic Midget "9.5" freelength 360lb rate. Retains standard ride height to overcome sleeping policemen, rough surface autotests/auto-solo's etc, whilst reducing body roll/ brake dive." as I have them on my car.

Bear in mind Moss isn't the only mainstream supplier for standard parts.

I see you have wheel bearing kit at £27, surely you remember that the face adjusted are available - http://heritagecarparts.com/mg-midget-front-wheel-bearing-set-ghk1142-proper-factory-spec-part/

If you want yor frog to be uprated then lowering and uprated ARB (with good tyres) will sharpen the handling.
N Atkins

Speaking of M*ss, this mailshot was in my box today.

Greybeard

Andy,

I wonder if a Morris Minor front disc conversion such as http://www.morrisminorspares.com/brakes-c42 would fit those stub axles.

Did you see my earlier post mentioning the fulcrum pin bushes having retaining cotter pins in the original application. Is there anything in the bushes welded to the end of the wishbones to fix them in place. In one pic it looks like there might be a grub screw but the pic wasn't clear enough for me to tell.
David Billington

Rob, I replied to your wanted ad a few days ago, did you not get the email! Could be a BBS problem. I'll try again.
davidsmith

With the car looking like its setting good and using 10.5 springs with 1/2 inch rubber spacer to make the spring total 11 inches

I think id try to stay with that spring or at least test them and see how they compare to midget springs
1 Paper

Car sat level, but seemed high to me, though i didnt measure it.

Spring has 7 turns and wire diameter just short of 12mm.

No locking device on the fulcrum pin mod, just those large nuts torqued up good and hard.
I had a quick go at taking them off, but couldnt..

Not a spridget fulcrum pin inside them either, its got the same size thread on both sides.
closeup of the fulcrum pin mod below

Took the shoes off this morning, they have been relined locally with a good thick lining, but never used.
Slaves are seized solid, couldnt even get them to turn or move using my large plumbers grips.






Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Looking at the back plate, the mounting holes dont match with a morris minor.
see picture of MM axle below, it has 4 holes, two wider apart than the others.
This back plate has either 5 holes, 4 of which line up with the stub axle i have, or maybe it originally had 3 holes and the two extra have been drilled to suit.

The morrisminorspares Grumpy brake kit (10.5" disks based on a marina) looks good but im not sure the adaptor bracket would fit the stubshaft i have.
It includes everything i need apart from wishbones , steering arms,fulcrum pins and bushes, gives me new hubs and bearings.
very tempting...


Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Im pretty sure this is the stub axle i have.

Original for the drum brake spridgets..

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Back brakes thankfully look standard.
Inside drum diameter 7 1/8".
No grooves..
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Andy,

From that pic the fulcrum pin bushes are threaded, at least one is, on the outside so aren't the A40 ones MG Moneypit posted a link to earlier or if they're they have been modified. From the little thread exposed on the fulcrum pin it looks a different pitch to the bush thread so that will make dismantling interesting. It'll be interesting to see what you find when they come apart, if they do.
David Billington

Bingo!
Rob was right .. A40 Farina brakes... ive never even seen one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-drum-brake-upgrade-kit-suit-Austin-A40-Farina-race-rally-Healey-Sprite-A30-/182327119108?hash=item2a738b0d04:g:vXMAAOSwPCVX8sSL&vxp=mtr

This is exactly what ive got...

From the Ebay add...

" 8" drum brake upgrade kit suit Austin A40 Farina race rally Healey Sprite A30"

"Austin A30 and early Sprites all had 7" front brakes, only Austin A40 Farina had 8" brakes. That makes the Farina front brakes a perfect upgrade to improve the braking on your Sprite or A30. The bolt pattern for the brake backing plates is identical, so these brakes simply bolt straight on to your uprights with no modifications whatsoever.

What we have here is the complete front brake kit from an A40 Farina. You get:

2 x backing plates in good condition
2 x brake drums in good condition, don't need machining
4 x wheel cylinders that will need to be rebuilt, probably best to get them sleeved in stainless steel, and I can arrange that for the winning bidder if you like
4 x brake shoes in good condition and with plenty of lining left
4 x brake shoe return springs in good condition
4 x brake adjusters in good condition


8" brake drum kits don't come up often and it's well over 2 years since I saw the last set for sale, so grab these while you can."

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Not so fast Andy. A40 Farina and A40 Cambridge are not the same cars. Confused? so were the customers.

Rob
MG Moneypit

A40 Farina - principally Spridget type components.

Mike Howlett

A40 Cambridge - principally MGB type components.

Mike Howlett

The advert says they have the same bolt pattern as the Sprite, so are a direct bolt on modification.
If you look at the photos they have holes to match either the 3 bolt disc braked hubs or the earlier 4 bolt drum braked hubs.

I have an identical set of 8" twin leading shoe front drum brakes which came with my Frog. Looking carefully at the mounting holes - I think they are original that way with 5 bolt holes and have not been drilled as a later modification. In my case they were fitted to the earlier Sprite patterned 4 bolt hubs.
GuyW

Should have included a photo.

GuyW

Andy, You certainly have some decisions to make. I have many spares, too many in fact. There are parts that you should buy new, but some that will be fine used. If you are going to bring it back to original I can supply you with the parts you need. I would only want a small amount for the parts and you pay the shipping. I also have the reamer for the king pins. Email me if you are interested in going that way. My intent is to keep another Spridget on the road. John
J Bubela

Guy

I don't think they will fit disc braked hubs.
Dave O'Neill 2

Quite right Dave.
Just checked, although there is a 3 bolt pattern of holes, they are not at the correct radius for the 3 bolt pattern on a later disk unit.

Mine were fitted to 4 bolt patterned early uprights. I wonder what else they were designed for then - they clearly were made to for both a 3 and a 4 bolt pattern.
This photo from the back is clearer.

GuyW

I wonder if the top hole is just an indicator so that the person assembling gets it the right way up or is in some way used during assembly to make sure it can only by put in a fixture one way.
David Billington

So, as John Bubela says... need to make a decision now...

I quite like the idea of the rare approved SVRA upgrade drum brakes (good find Jeremy) and that is probably the cheapest easiest way to go.

However the disk brakes are what should be on the car.

The steering arms and tie rods are a shambles and need to be put right.

The wishbones, whilst i applaud the ingenuity, are quite beat up and bent and have no reinforcement for an ARB.

I could spend some more money and buy a nice big brake kit and put it on my frog (which is way beyond any worries of originality) which is my higher powered car anyway, and put the disk brakes from my frog on the red car...

I have asked for a quote from Andy Jennings, who has 'complete Spridget front suspension' on his website for 185 pounds.. need to see what that actually includes.
John Bubela, thanks for your generous offer i'll be in touch.

I also need to get hold of some other parts such as quarterlight seals, new roof, door mirrors, ......

There is another consideration... Importing parts into Thailand.
Because of the import tax on cars (200%) many cars were imported in two halves and welded together. Cars in halves are spare parts and only 20% duty.

This lead to a lot of dangerous supercars on the road and there was a famous example of a car transporter full of them setting on fire.
Following this the government clamped down on this and made it illegal to import second hand car parts..
So to be safe i need to import only new stuff(or reconditioned that looks new)

As it happens my local car club is having a guest speaker at the meeting this thursday. The guy is from an import export company and is up to date with current laws and practice. I suspect what i eventually do will depend on his advice.

Or I could go full on redneck and graft on a full honda civic suspension and brakes...
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

David S, no nothing at all at the time I posted. I even answered it myself and got an email from the BBS. Since then I got one from Richard Wooley in Derbyshire but that is all. How weird.

Rob
MG Moneypit

Whilst im sorting out parts to sort out the brakes and suspension i decided to have a crack at the door windows.

Passenger side wouldnt move at all, and i ended up removing the quarterlight before i could move it.
Drivers side very very stiff.

The winding mechanism etc all seems to be well lubed and ok, the glass is getting stuck in the rubber guides that the glass is supposed to slide up and down in.

According to internet, the thing to do is spray silicone lubricant.
but if i do that, then the glass will have a small amount of lubricant left on it when the window is wound up (closed) which would get on your clothes etc.

Has anyone else had this problem ?
The rubber guides look quite new ...

Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Silicone oil *might* be better, transfer less and easy to wipe away but use sparingly.

Nigel Atkins

Never tried it, but apparently using talc can help.

But if they are that sticky l would wonder if the front and rear glass channels are properly aligned. There is adjustment by slotted bolt holes in the brackets at the bottom of the channels.
GuyW

Took the fulcrum pin modification apart.

Pic shows the modified pin arrangement at the bottom, a standard sprite pin in the middle and the king pin i removed at the top.
Modified pin is 21mm diamater.

The large nuts at each end are threaded internally and externally.

it actually looks like a good idea.
Kingpin opened out to suit the bigger pin.




Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Wouldn't opening up the kingpin weaken it? That's a lot of material that has been removed.
Martin

Yes, these kingpins are scrap now. I wouldnt feel safe using them.
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

This thread was discussed between 24/01/2017 and 17/02/2017

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