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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Penetrating oils

I was looking for a cheap alternative to penetrating oils, and came upon this.

Machinist's Workshop magazine actually tested penetrants for break out torque on rusted nuts. Significant results! They are below,They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

Penetrating oil ..... Average load

None...................... 516 pounds
WD-40 .................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster ............... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ............ 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ............... 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix............53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test.

Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.


Acetone (ask the wife or gf if you can nick her nail varnish remover -- or use your own ;) ) very cheap.

Comma ATM1L AQM ATF1L Circa a fiver.

That's a lot of penetration for little money.

Lawrence Slater

That's very interesting! I am surprised that WD40 made as much difference as that! But it's Acetone and ATF for me then!
Guy

I've seen that mentioned before and a slight variant is called Ed's red which has another ingredient IIRC. Ihe main concern mentioned with the ATF acetone blend is it is extremely flammable due to the acetone so take care.
David Billington

I know we all knock WD40 - but if you have it, it does make a difference (as shown)... its a thin oily substance which has penetrating effects... so its always better than nout. Good to know about the ATF acetone mix - will try that. I wonder what the transmission fluid does - nasty horrible stuff though (wouldn't want it on my skin... and I'm normally not fussy about that sort of thing)
C L Carter

Are any of these similar to Plus Gas? I heard somewhere that Coke made a decent job of freeing rusted bits if left overnight. Has anyone tried it or is it an urban myth?
Jeremy
Jeremy 3

I read that a mixture of paraffin and diesel fuel is good. Not tried it though.
Mike Howlett

I saw that too. I think it was on the MGB BBS.

I've got a few bottles of ATF in the garage, so I just need some acetone. I believe it's readily available from GRP suppliers.

Despite what many people on here say, WD40 is marketed as a penetrating fluid and it does work...to a degree.
Dave O'Neill2

Haven't WD40 makers just cashed in on it's side effect of also being a penetrating oil, when it was invented as a water/moisture dispersant?

I agree though, I'm surprised to see those performance figures.

Cellulose thinners should also work mixed with ATF I think.

Are there any chemists here?

Yup acetone is flammable, but none of my gf's have ever set themselves on fire when taking off their nail varnish :)

Lawrence Slater

This magic mixture seems universally acredited across a lot of car forums.
My guess is that the acetone acts as just a thinner. Would probably work with White spirit .
chemically I cannot see that acetone does much it is quite an inert solvent. However it is clear that ATF would not penetrate in neat form hence the need for thinner.
Why ATF works is the real question.
Things like Coke work as they are rich in phosphoric acid which desolves mineral (Eg limescale) deposits as well as reacting with iron to form an inert phosphate. I am also guessing it loosens aluminium oxides.
Limescale remover (usually citric acid) probably works well with similar corrosion.
Just need to know the active ingredient in ATF!
tim
T Dafforn

I am no chemist, but presumably one factor is having something with a low surface tension so that it creeps well. Maybe it isn't the action of the acetone directly on the corrosion that is important, but that the acetone lowers the surface tension of the ATF. I would also guess that whatever the active ingredient is, it needs to have free electrons in order to enable it to work its way into the molecules of the rust/corrosion /crud that is causing the fastener to seize up in the first place.
Guy


Read this. It should tell you what's in ATF, if you can understand some of the chemistry.

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/5807815.html
Lawrence Slater

Sperm oil, ATF and Acetone.

Did you know that sperm oil was once one of the active ingredients in ATF?

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.htm

Ed's red, is a powerful carbon remover it seems. Beware though, it also de-leads. So if you have an unleaded head with lead still on the seats, you might not want to clean it with Ed's red.

It's even available commercially now too.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=19936/Product/-ED-S-RED-BORE-CLEANER

Lawrence Slater

You will be lucky to find nail polish remover with acetone in these days. Most proudly proclaim to be acetone free. 'elf and safety ruining everyones fun again! We used to clean everything at uni with acetone. ha ha

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Essentials-Nail-Polish-Remover-250ml_1115013/ £1

1st ingredient listed on the back is acetone. Got a bottle right here. I think superdrug do one too.

Acetone is also used as a paint thinners, but it's a little more expensive than cellulose thiners, which from what I can tell does/is the same thing. I have 5ltrs of cellulose thinners in the garage, and it smells exactly the same. Bought it locally for 10 quid. Cheaper on the internet. http://www.alloypaints.com/cellulose-thinners-5ltr-17-p.asp


Acetone 5Ltr.
http://www.skyline-online.co.uk/ACETONE-5LTR_AZJHV.aspx
Lawrence Slater

as Christian's put a very small can of WD40 in the boot tool kit is better than nothing as a penertrating/realing fluid and the 4" cans take up very little room

a big can of something like Plus Gas can last years so isn't that expensive, most people use far too much of it during each application flooding an area where only a small percentage actually goes to where it's required

if you can use a non-spray can and apply just a few drops directly to where it's required at each application then very little will be wasted in comparison to flooding the area or spraying - thus saving it Lawrence so costing less

if you can also clean up the area before applying then that will probably direct the fluid more directly to where you want it to go rather than spreasding out

we used to get small bottles of acetone from the chemist IIRC as a solvent cleaner for cleaning up marks on shop soiled white goods, too heavy handed with it and it marked (or was it melted) the enamel paint
Nigel Atkins

You can also use MEK (keytone) in lieu of acetone. It works as well as acetone.
darnoc31

I stand corrected wrt the acetone content of nail polish remover. I will tell my girlfriend to stop buying inferior quality remover! :-)

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Acetone is good for cleaning and degreasing but carefull, it will degrease your skin as well. It also penetrates skin and gets in your system. MethylEthylKetone, or MEK, is nasty stuff, stay well away from it! Used to use that to clean magnetic chip detectors from RR turbines. You could see the oil "fall" off and disappear.
Alex G Matla

Agree with Alex, MEK is evil, keep well away from it. Also please be careful with Acetone, its highly flamable and damages many plastics.
r parker

My little rant coming up.

Why is everybody so worried, ott, about safety?.

Of course Acetone is flammable. Petrol is also highly volatile, as is white spirit and cellulose thinners. I use petrol as my favourite degreaser. Much better and cheaper than Jizer which being water based is safer and environmentally friendly.

But being an adult, I work out the consequencies for myself.

As far as I'm aware, there are no children on here that own and work on their spridgets. So constantly reminding adults of the obvious gets a bit patronising, however well meant, and I'm sure it is well meant.

Many things are dangerous and I reckon people can work that out for themselves.

Rant over. :)

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

You seem to know the dangers so don't take offence, the woman in the news recently with extensive burns obviously didn't and is suffering the consequences. I too use cellulose thinners for cleaning things and am aware of the dangers.
David Billington

Yes David but

Question 1. Why are you decanting petrol at all? Are you selling it by the pint on the black market?
Question 2. Why choose to decant petrol in your kitchen?
Quesiton 3. Why are you swirling the petrol around enough to create enough vapour to start a fire
Question 4. Why were you (probably) smoking/cooking during all of this?

On a serious note though, Diesel is a much better degreaser than petrol (only I never have it to hand) - its also a lot safer cos its harder to ignite by spark or match for that matter.

Jizer is pretty good stuff imo - not as good as petrol or diesel, but because its water soluble you can wash it off. However, its twice the price of petrol (for now). Also there are parts you don't want to get jizer/water in - like your engine. Where as petrol is fine... I tend to use celly thinners or meths or parrafin instead depending on application.

C L Carter

Btw in my adhesives lab at college we used to use acetone to degrease all surfaces prior to bonding. We had massive 25 litre drums of the stuff which we decanted into 5lt bottles. Wish I'd pinched a bottle now, cos it seems hard to get hold of (probably due to those who perform solvent abuse as a hobby).

Do not make the mistake I did, of amusing acetonitrile is the same thing as acetone... in my moment of madness I thought it would be the same... turns out its a solvent and it degreases well. It also does a whole lot of bad sh*t and should not be breathed in.
C L Carter

C L Carter,

Acetone seems to be readily available on ebay.
David Billington

As I posted earlier,
Acetone 5Ltr.
http://www.skyline-online.co.uk/ACETONE-5LTR_AZJHV.aspx

I'm not offended David, it was a toungue in cheek rant. :) I haven't seen the story about the unfortunate woman, so I can't comment. However if Christians description of her actions is accurate, she's an unfortunate bloody fool, and there's no accounting for stupidity, irrespective of how sorry you may feel for someone who does something stupid. I guess you have to protect some people from themselves, but I resent the restrictions these days, brought about by the stupid, and the abusers that christian mentions.

Maybe it's partly true as Nigel often says, I'm "old" and grew up with these risks, so I know all about them. But Christian is also aware of the risks, and is young by comparison.

Anyway, I didn't know diesel was better than petrol for cleaning, I'll give it a try. I used to use parrafin too (kinder on the hands), but there isn't a single garage near me that I can buy it from anymore, and in garden centres, it's more expensive than petrol, £7+ for 4 ltrs.

Whilst on the subject of being kind to hands. Does anyone know of very strong hard wearing, petrol/oil resistant, tactile tight fitting gloves, and who sells them? Most I've found don't last 5 minutes before ripping, or they are so thick you can't feel anything.
Lawrence Slater

Nitrile gloves are better than either Latex or Vinyl and last a bit longer in Petrol, thinners, etc, but they will eventually rip. They do tend to last quite a bit longer than the others though.

Bernie.
b higginson

Thanks Bernie, I googled suppliers of Nitrile gloves, and they are stocked by most builders merchants. I'll take a look in my local tomorrow.
Lawrence Slater

yes at college we use nitrile gloves - the blue ones are thin and petrol makes them die... the purple ones are thicker and better (still thin enough to feel like you're not wearing them) but I think they are better quality.

They not cheap though - so I only use them when I'm doing oily things and they'll last a day. If I'm using thinners - tis best to dry out your hands I find... if you're fussy then use some barrier cream instead
C L Carter

It's really the grime that gets into the skin I want to avoid. I used to scrub my hands with ajax to get it out. now though, I prefer prevention. Forgot to look for gloves today. saw some online though, about 3 quid a pair, but not seing them it's hard to tell how thick and durable they might be. That's why I figure a builders merchant might be a good idea. If they last on a building site, even for a day, they should last the same time in my garage.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence

This is the sort of thing you want.

They are used in a lot of laboratories...and in my garage!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIMTECH-SCIENCE-90625-Purple-NITRILE-Gloves-box-100-Medium-/330708216583
Dave O'Neill2

Soap rubbed into clean hands & behind your nails & then left to dry helps to keep out general oily grime, liquid soap is easiest to apply, cheap & "handy" barrier cream.

Alan.
Alan Cotterill (1972 standard 1275 )

Hi Dave, thanks for that. I'll check them out. 100 for that money is pretty cheap.

Are they reasonably hard wearing?

Lawrence Slater

I get blue nitrile gloves from an industrial clothing firm locally - they are more of a 'washing up' glove fit and thickness - seem to remember they are industrial 'Marigolds' - will look a pair out and check.

R.
richard boobier

Hi,

I use these
http://tinyurl.com/7jhj6ca
they're cheap, last longer than latex and are great for keeping hands clean and act as a barrier for nasty, carcinogenic stuff like used engine oil.

Jeremy
Jeremy 3

Lawrence

Yes, reasonably hard wearing and resistant to petrol/parrafin, which latex aren't.

I dislike vinyl - as used by Jeremy - as they are not very flexible, meaning they are difficult to put on if they are a 'snug' fit, but very loose and baggy if they are any bigger.
Dave O'Neill2

Okidoki. Thanks all. :)
Lawrence Slater

Spoke to my local Arco bloke and he recommended disposable neoprene gloves. They were much thicker than the standard nitriles, but still plenty thin enough to feel what you're working on. Not the cheapest but when you consider how much longer they will last...

For degreasing I bought a set of these green ones:
http://www.screwfix.com/c/safety-workwear/chemical-hazard-gloves/cat850394
And they're pretty good, just like a solvent proof marigold.
I was using them for some caustic paint stripping (caustic soda + wishbone = cleeeeen wishbone!) and they were far more robust than the disposable nitriles with the result that I didn't melt off the fingerprints on my fingers again - a definite bonus as far as I'm concerned!
-Craig
C Robertson

Craig, that's great. I don't think 3 quid is too expensive. There's a screwfix near me, I'll pop along a take a peek.

Thanks.
Lawrence Slater

I agree that you need something a bit more robust for working with solvents etc., but the purple Nitriles are about the best for generally keeping the muck off your hands and sensitive enough. I think the Cops use the purple ones.

Bernie.
b higginson

What do doctors use to examine your internals? lol
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 31/03/2012 and 05/04/2012

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