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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Unbonded brake shoes. Not for children lol.

As has been my habit for the last few decades of owning my Sprite, when my mot is due, I pull off the drums, blow the dust out, and generally check all's well prior to adjusting the shoes up for the test.

So off came the LH drum and I got a surprise.

The leading shoe lining is only resting on the shoe frame, because I rested it there. When I pulled off the drum, the shoe fell onto the ground. It was completely detached. And the trailing shoe lining isn't far off detaching either.

Never had this happen before. And I wouldn't have had a clue if I hadn't pulled off the drum, as the brakes were working completely normally. I think I prefer riveted. lol.

I've had bonded linings for yonks, and never had this happen, even when the linings are "wafir" thin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJZPzQESq_0





Lawrence Slater

As you can probably guess, I've replaced the shoes on both sides with new ones.



Lawrence Slater

Chinese glue?

I've been trying to shift a set of AP Lockheed shoes, but no-one seems to want them.
Dave O'Neill2

These were Ferodo. I thought they were decent.
Lawrence Slater

I have had that on moderns. My daughter got stuck at her work carpark and had to call out breakdown (me!) When she released the handbrake and reversed out of her parking space one of the rear wheels locked up solid and stayed that way. I had to remove the drum - not easy when the brakes were locked hard on. One lining had detached and travelled around to effectively double up the lining thickness on the other shoe, jamming it solid. I actually knew what had happened before I took the drum off as I had seen it before so I had gone armed with a replacement set of brake shoes.

I think the problem is surface rust creeping between shoe and lining. And I think it is most likely that it starts after going through floods at some stage. That, and probably poor quality bonding in the first place.
Guy W

I had it happen on the Metro I learnt to drive in, although in my case the shoe actually fell off and made the most appalling noise you've ever heard. I had no idea what it was apart from the brakes now not so good, (hooray for dual circuit!) so it was a very very very slow drive back home, with the shoe part stuck on the inside of the drum going round and round and round...

After looking at it we reckoned it must have melted off/cheap glue
Rob Armstrong

For some reason, im.getting an odd senstation that lawerances next thread will be titled

"What size pop rivet can I Use to fix my brake shoes"

With that much meat on those shoes, you know there never going to make it to the trash bind


Hahaha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Many years ago I worked for Girling when bonded shoes were coming in and riveted shoes were still in production. Bonded shoes can only be checked by destroying them and this is what was done to a sample throughout production. After heat curing a side push was put on the lining until in failed. The bond had to be stronger than the lining material to be acceptable. We never had any problems as I can remember. If you do try riveting at home please make sure that the rivet swells to fill the hole. The linings are not just fixed by clenching the rivet. It has to swell to prevent shunting of the lining under load. These were sample checked by bouncing a steel rod on the rivet and listening to ensure complete swell.
W Clough

I recall reading somewhere that the glue on bonded shoes can eventually break down especially if the car is left in damp conditions or is little used. I suppose if the car was being used as a daily driver the brakes go through regular heat cycles so it all stays together ok. Secondly it might be reasonable to assume the brakes in normal use (say 8000 miles PA)would be periodically replaced possible before the bond weakens. Given many of our cars often travel much less than this, the brake shoes may be quite old. I have never had a bonded lining fail in the past although currently I am using riveted Unipart linings
Bob Beaumont

I had it happen to me once on my A40 about 40 years ago when I was going down a long hill. Pedal vibrated then went to the floor so obviously tried the handbrake which of course didnt do much either. Stopped by going uphill into the pub car park and turning off the ignition. They were only a few months old and were the first bonded set I had bought. Needless to say I only ever had rivetted for years after that.

Trev
T Mason

Whats the saying... you learn something new everyday

I had no idea that shoes were glued on...I thought they were all riveted

To re-glue, granted I wouldnt do this, but what about that long set , 24 hour 2 part epoxy...that stuff is industructable

Give it a try lawerance... you know you dont want to throw those perfectly good shoes away....just video tape the drive


Hahaha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Well prop!
This engineering problem should keep you up till 4am for months! Lol! HHHMMM, I wonder if you apply that glue to your head gasket it could keep it from blowing apart!
Steven Devine

Steven,
your posts to Prop are almost those of a stalker

where you, what I believe you call over your side of the pond a 'jock', or the subject of a 'jock's' prejudice or bullying that causes you now to bully others

let it go

and ease up a bit on Prop - sure he's not perfect but none of us are
Nigel Atkins

Hahaha.... Funny you should mention that steven

Years ago, and hidden away in the archives here, I purchased a "good" used toyota engine for my pick up truck out of the salvage yard...so I got it back home and decided to freashen it up before dumping it in the truck

Some idiot, appeartly didnt understand the concept of gasket sealer and assembled all the Achilles with some kind of epoxy cement...I can only assume my buddy MR. JB weld

It took 2 weeks and I dont know how many 1lb propane bottles to get all that crap off

So your comment made me smile

Cly head ??? Stay tuned ... (wink ! wink)

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Its okay nigal...and thank you

Luckly steven lives a good 2300 miles away and was responding to comments I made recently about a lack of sleep due to over active brain

And the cly head has become somewhat Of an international joke which even has made me laugh on occassion...and which also has actually been a motivating force for achiving something on it

So I dont feel im being hunted as before...all is in good taste

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Nigel,
You see, we in the colonies just arnt as sensitive as you fellas on the jolly olde Island I guess.

The humor can some what translate but when it falls off the plate no one wants a helping. Im not sure what a stalker does on the internet, maybe theres a handbook?

HHHHMMMM...

The hitchhikers guide to stalking the BBS!

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
stalkers addition!

Im not sure I qualify but anything I post here is not meant to distress, but to enlighten jokingly.

I wish I could have had the extra time after school when I was a kid to be a jock, though I was never really was a fan of those guys myself. I was forced to become a mechanic at my Uncles Taxistand at 14.
( No human being could work with him as he could be the ultimate bully somedays! Man he could really stir the pot!) He recently passed away at 61 years of age.
He is missed. Im sure some of my acid humour is derived from his antics! He was a great debater, loved the telling of a story, and could make you laugh or cry however it suited his mood. He would always express outrage at a wrong he saw or felt may have been done! (Somewhat how you have expressed yourself at my comment.) I was raised in an environment where you could do that, but you paid dearly for it with counter debating that may change your mind. Ha ha ha!

Nigel! Bottom line!
I guess we will all have to live with it! Humour comes in different forms but you are right its not humour if someones real feelings are being trampled.
This is not my intention!

My uncles name was Dan and I think he really hated british cars. I wasnt allowed to bring it in the garage at all. I had to listen to many a high spirited rant of why they were rubbish.
Good thing Im thick in the head! He never got through when it came to the LBCs.

Dan always bought high milage fords for cabs then, so I learned alot about 351CI Clevelands,modifieds and windsors. Lincoln models of those years came with
429CI workhorses!


Some men must travel their own road, even if its against the traffic.:-)

If I thought it were really bothering Prop I wouldnt post it.

Im sure we all have enough to deal with in our regular dailey routine. I wouldnt want to bring anguish to anyones life, Its to short to be spent thata way.

Prop I hope you know I am just kidding and Im looking forward to the days that you tell us how close you are to having the car run again! As we patiently await details of the count down till you fire her up!

Ive heard you could use JB Weld for engine block repairs but you are the first person Ive ever heard of that ever saw it used first hand! Ha Ha Ha!

Did it work?
Steven Devine

Steven, ignore Nigel. He just likes to have something to say, even when he hasn't got something to say, if you follow my drift. lol.

As this is the first time this has ever happened to me, I had never really given the rivet vs bonding much thought till now. But had thought that bonding was better, since you could use more meat without scoring the drums with the rivets when the shoes got thin.

What amazes me though, is that I felt nothing at all. hand brake worked as normal as did the foot brake. I'm wondering if it was my removing the drum that finally broke the glue's back, and until then the shoe was managing to stay in place. You can see the other lining was lifting in the pic below. A bit more leverage with that screw driver, and that lining has since detached too. And there is indeed some evidence of rust colour under the linings.


Would have been bit awkward to explain at the mot today (pm), why my brakes suddenly failed. lol.

Maybe our long wet summer and winter/spring last year and this, had a hand in it? never drying out fully? Who knows.

Prop, nah, there isn't that much meat on those shoes to be worth the bother, esp as I already had a spare set. But then again, might be a nice experiment. ;)

Course, I ain't no longer got a spare set, so Dave O'Neill2, what's the asking on the AP Lockheed shoes? are they nos?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
Can you even buy rivets for brake shoes anymore? Ive heard of machines that used to shave the
high spots off the brake shoes to make them fit the drums better. I dont think thay can legally use them here any longer because of the effect asbestos has on man kind. Ive seen it peel off like that on the american iron over here but they were usually rusty as hell. I wonder what they make he glue out of?


Nigel,

No more drifting now, this thread is about brake peeling! Lol!
Steven Devine

Steven,
I wasn't being entirely serious but you do seem to be stalking Prop but if he's OK with the attention then it's fine

there, more thread drift
Nigel Atkins

What is the glue made of..???

Im guessing horse maybe a little bit of stray dog... or am I thinking of childrens school glue,

Ither way, mmmm good....so tasty

Drift ???? .... eeehhhh, realivent

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I'm thinking a bit of flower and water mixed into a paste would do it. LOL.

Anyway. New mot on the Sprite today. I can't remember when I last had a fail or a warning. The bloke I go to knows the car as well as me I reckon.

He even complimented me on the effectiveness of the rear brakes, I didn't tell him the linings fell off and I'd had to put new shoes in. lol.
Lawrence Slater

Well done Lawrence!
Guy W

Cheers Guy. :).

Funny how that 1st drive after another mot pass always refreshes my enthusiasm.

I wasn't expecting it to fail, quite the reverse. I wouldn't have submitted it if I had any doubt. But subconciously, you know that once every year you lose control of your car, and are effectively powerless.

And then, when it's over, a good blast up a dual carriageway feels great. Freedom again, for another year. lol.
Lawrence Slater

We've never had any problems with the bonding on shoes even when we had them on the rear of the (MGB) rally car - which because of wieght distribution (passenger, tools, spare wheel, under-body protection) and the lack of weight transfer on gravel has the rear brakes working at least as hard as the front.

Lawrence your shoes seem to be showing a small sniff of corrosion where the lining was bonded, which makes me think that Bob's suggestion might be relevant, though in my experience the problem with bonding adhesives to steel is that corrosion is the cluprit by attacking the steel the glue is bonded to. How long had they been on? If many years and if the car lives outside then that could be it.
Paul Walbran

Hi Paul.
They've probably been on there years, but I don't keep much in the way of history, so no way to tell really. They're quite possibly even older than they look. I used to buy bits and pieces much more regularly in the distant past, because it was all so cheap. So if for example changing the shoes, I would have looked at them and decided they had more life in them, and chucked 'em in the spares box, and that has lived in all sorts of places from the loft to the garage. They probably found there way back onto the car some x number of years ago. Not the first time I've done this over 35 years, but the first time I've ever seen the linings come off.

The car sat for 2.5 years in my garage when I was in the Phils, so maybe condensation got to them, but the rest of the car didn't suffer, so that seems unlikely. Could have been me hosing the salt off last year, and the year before, after runs in the snow. But I've always driven in the snow whenever it falls.

Maybe just weak bonding on this set. The other set(side) shows no sign of lining lift at all, and both sides were ok the last time I paid attention to them, which was probably at last years mot time. So it might have started in the last year, which was quite wet generally.

But although I now know others have had this as described below, it can't be that common amongst Spridgets, otherwise I'm sure it would be in the archives.

One of life's little mysteries.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, The two cars I have seen this on were my Wife's Honda Jazz. Original Honda parts (renowned for quality?) and my daughter's Renault Clio (built down to a price, but still not too bad).
Pretty sure it was rust creep under the lining in both cases. Both are in regular daily use so its not condensation when parked up for a while. The common factor round here is fairly regular immersion in flooded roads during the winter. And summer!
Guy W

"Funny how that 1st drive after another mot pass always refreshes my enthusiasm."

"Freedom again!"

That really is the best medicine! I think thats what I was trying to say with my 128 post. Youve summed it up better here!

Congrads, Wow theres been a lot of back slapping going on here!

Nigel,
Heres a good manual for you to read!

http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html

Totally serious! BAha hahaha!
Steven Devine

Steven, I've added a couple of my fav' tunes to the 128 post. Good driving music.
Lawrence Slater

Gottem Lawrence! They are gems!
Steven Devine

This thread was discussed between 26/06/2013 and 28/06/2013

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