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MG MG Y Type - jack all system seals

Hi
today i got the new seals for the jack system
but i to get them in place ?
https://www.mgccyregister.co.uk/technical-information/servicing-2/jackall-repairs/?doing_wp_cron=1607966331.8156399726867675781250

no chance to do it like this,
had the seals in hot water before
but again no chance ...


But I remember the bushings for the shock absorber linkage
I have pressed in some weeks ago
B)-

Happy that last week I ordered some round aluminum parts for my lathe

with the lathe I prepared them
on top 10 cm high as wide as the rubber seal
at the bottom as wide as the opening of the part
2° from the top to the bottom

took me 2 hours to make it , because i have only a small lathe, not too much power
so i can cut only step by step


with a nut from a ratchet box ( will post the size later ) i pressed them in with my hydraulik press

works perfectly as it should
was really easy

will write a new guide how to to the job
from the beginning to the end

so I found my way to do it

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)





FT Franz

from the bottom i put a 3/4 nut in the seal
this nut is as wide as the ram
then i can push in the ram from the other side without damage the new seal ;-)

the first jack is now ready for the next 50 years


if someone has problems write me a mail for more pictures





FT Franz

Hi
all jacks now with new seals
will write a description how you can make it withour problems

i don t think that you get them in with your fingers how it is discribed
with the press it works without any problems

i will write a pdf with a lot of pictures and tell you exactly what to do
i have tried to make a video
but the accu was empty after 5 minutes
but so fast i can t do it ;-)

if you know what to do and you have all tools you can do it in one hour ;-)

happy and pround , not my really job
i am a medical human doctor
here i have the car as my patient
FT Franz

how to change the jack all system seals

easy if you have the tools ;-)

if you have a comment please mail me
or give a comment here

the first one was difficult for me the others easy
would be great if this unique system will work on all MG Y s



i hope my pictures are better then my english
FT Franz

Franz - I'm so glad you have shared your experience on this most daunting subject. I have my YA body and interior pretty much ready to bolt together, but have delayed putting body on chassis for some 12 months, while - (1) I embrace retirement after 40 years' hard labour, and (2) I pluck up courage to open up and reseal the Jackalls! So your notes are timely indeed. They will sit with the IMGYTR notes, ready for a new burst of energy after Christmas. Your other detailed notes are also hugely appreciated. I hope to find out how to capture them into one file - I no longer have a secretary to efficiently bail me out! John.
J P Hall

for this car you find less information in the web

i search with pictures
one picture say more then 1000 words

my english is not so good
and my profession is total different

so it is difficult for me to understand the english and the mechanical information

have posted more then 700 pictures from my restauration

for me and for other YA owners
i have used two other forums before
for my TA
and the handling there is a little bit easyer for me
look there and you find a lot of more information

https://www.mgexp.com/forum/t-series-and-prewar-forum.46/mg-ya-no-1675-from-1948.4022768/

glad to hear this from you

i hope i can finish the car in summer
a lot of work and my new job as a occupational health physician less time then before

now 14 month of work on the car
all done by myself ;-)
FT Franz

Today made the last 3 jacks
now all are new sealed and should work in the car
i hope so ;-)
i have tried the first time to make a video and upload
i hope you understand my horrible english
but i hope that a video is better then pitures and better then a story

here you see how you can dismantel it, but i had dismatel this jack before, if you do it the first time you need a lot of heat and power

https://vimeo.com/492226303

also a video how to put together
all in real time ;-)

https://vimeo.com/492237571
FT Franz

So Franz, if "a picture says a thousand words", then your video surely says 10,000! So helpful. Like you, my working life was not in any way mechanical, but the love of these Funny Old Cars lifts us to new heights of achievement, enjoyment, and a little bit of pride. Stay well in these difficult times. John.
J P Hall

Franz,

I have to do the same job..... soom. I have the new seals and you are correct. The new seals are the same size and shape, but not the same material. The originals are like a sponge rubber, the new ones are of a solid elastomer. Their is noway the new seals can be folded like the manual says. I am glad you pioneered the way to do the new seals. Thanks for sharing.
... CR
CR Tyrell

Hi and you will get more Information soon
i will add some picture to this guide here
is good but i think some more pictures will help
https://www.mgccyregister.co.uk/the-jackall-pump/

took me 2 hours to make the rebuild of the pump
if i had to do it again,1 hour or less

so you have to wait a little bit ;-)
FT Franz

i hope it will help other MG Y owners
FT Franz

Hello
First the bad news
I went to a Louis shop to buy some more fork oil
They have call and collect, but only paying with bank card
He gave me 1 liter w20 fork oil I want to pay, took my new bank card and give the pin, wrong pin, again wrong pin
Go outside and call my wife, this was a different card without pin
At home I have done the last work on the jack system and filled it up with 600 ml fork oil, then I pump
And the good news
After 2 minutes of pumping the first jack goes down
Then the oil was empty before the second one goes down
no leaking ;-)
tomorrow after work o will fetch it with the correct card ;-)
and then i pump it up all
i beleave it will work

Then I took out the stabilizer steel inside the body, no use anymore


FT Franz

nowhere found Information how much fluid you Need after comlpete Restauration...

i have seen the most written article
difficult to buy something now. Corona ;-(
FT Franz

the system is now working perfect
no leakiong anywhere

now i have to make a new handle

christmas today ;-)

the work was worth it
you can do it too

FT Franz

Hello, I've been following this thread for a few days and can report that I have satisfactorily replaced the seals on two jacks using a variation of the techniques shown.
Not having access to a hydraulic press (Covid regulations) I used my big vice.
After fiddling with and failing with an assortment of Sockets, due to not being able to keep the seal square in the taper bore, I made up a two stage tapered ram to press the seal into the housing and it worked easily!

Due to limitations with my lathe I had to use a 7.5degree taper, rather than the 2 degree.

So, thank you for posting and solving the problem for us.

I'll post a PDF drawing of my setup and hope that it helps others with the same problem

Have a Peaceful NewYear and Keep Safe

David
D P Jones

Franz,

If you have trouble getting 20W fork oil, you can use standard Dextron ATF fluid. Very close to the original Jack-all fluid.

... CR
CR Tyrell

I am also refurbishing my YT's Jackall System with Ram seals from John Jubb and pump seals hopefully from MGOCC, and using Franz videos and other papers.

The pipe from tank to pump has previously been replaced with a hose and the pipe from pump to left front ram just loops down with some sharp bends. Both therefore need to be replaced.

I have found photos of the pipe route from the tank to pump pipe, but I am unsure of the route from the pump to the front ram. LTBYs indicates the pipe goes down and along the chassis rail.

My query is does this pipe run along the top or outside (as per Franz photo earlier in this thread) or inside edge of the chassis. Also does it go on engine or body side of the lower stay.

I have purchased some 6mm copper pipe (expensive), but not sure if this is correct size for the tank to pump pipe.


Any photos showing the pipe route would be apprciated.

stay safe and well
cheers
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

Hi
first i have taken the wrong way for the pipes,
i can make new pictures tomorrow so you can see how it will work
to explain it in english too difficult for me
so write here if you need this pictures
was it easy as i have written it
have you use a press ?
FT Franz

if you need more pictures write me ;-)

i searched forpictures in the web, but doesn t find a lot so first i hace fixed the jack pump 180 degrees wrong,
the handle should show to the battery box

you have done it like me with the press ?
was it easy ore difgficult to make it ?


FT Franz

Hi Franz

I am only just starting the refurbishment. So far I have only removed the pump and the pipe to the front ram. I will not start pulling apart the rams nor the pump until I have all the seals on hand.

Thank you for the photos in the PDF. I see one possible problem with the location of the pipe from the pump going to the front left ram. In the photos it appears to be on the outer side of the chassis rail. The inner guard bolts to the chassis rail, so the pipe would have to run along the top or inner side of the rail. My YT has a hole in the middle of the chassis rail mid way between the pump and ram, which could be used for a pipe clip to hold the Jackall pipe in place.

Stuart
Stuart Duncan

Stuart is correct, the hole in the top of the chassis rail is for the jackall pipe clip.

These photos are of a rather dirty YT3861.

Safety Fast

Tony
The Classic Workshop




A L SLATTERY

Hi
as you see in my pictures
the side panel was missing,
yesterday i fixed it to the car
and the jack line is in the position as it should
so i need one more of my stainell steel polished clips i have lasered some month ago

so all ok
FT Franz

I have taken the front 2 Jackall RAMS off my YT and have tried to dismantle both of them.

With the left front one I was able to screw the elbow off the inner tube, and was able to pull the foot and inner tube out most of way. Even with stillsons I have been unable to unscrew the foot and housing. As suggested by Neil in his IMGYTR paper, I made a wooden grip of the vice, but this snaped in quarters when I put pressure on the housing with the stillson.

Both housing and feet have been soaked in bolt loosening spray, but still will not turn.

Before I try an engineering firm, I will try heating the housing to loosen it and heat the inner tube to see if the heat loosens the feet.

On the right front one, the elbow just twists round and around, in either direction (the foot and inner tube do not move). I am able to pull the foot out a few inches. Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can get the elbow off this ram?

Both RAMS had no washers under the elbows. There were rubber seals / spacers around the inner tube above the feet. Both RAMS had oil inside them and the outside of the inner rams are oily.

Other ideas on loosening the housing and feet most welcome.
cheers
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

You need to make clamp blocks using steel or aluminium - timber will not be strong enough.

If you can, withdraw the inner ram from the outer tube with airr/hydraulic pressure (set the pump on your bench) and unscrew the foot from the ram shaft.

Pull the foot away from the ram tube and insert a hacksaw blade into the spring. This will take the pressure off the pin through the foot.

Withdraw the hacksaw blade. The elbow at the top screws into a fitting that swivels on the spring, so once the tension is off the spring it should undo.

Now the foot is off the ram, you can get a large socket on to the ram tube base - do not use Stilsons or you will damage the tube and ram beyond repair.

I have some spare rams if some of yours are unserviceable.

Be safe when working on these rams - they can bite you.

Safety Fast

Tony
The Classic Workshop

PS - There are lots of hints and tips on the IMGYTR Website about working on Jackall Rams. There are no short cuts to repair these.
A L SLATTERY

Die IT Like i have described IT
Without Heat it dosen t Loos
I need the Heat in 3from 4
Also i Took Aluminium , that diesen t Hurt the RAM
You get the Tools for some Money in the bay
I have Made two Videos, have you Seen it
FT Franz

Franz, yes I have watched your videos.

Tony, I didn't use the stillson on the tubes only on the housings and feet, bith of which have flats.

I have ordered a set of alum soft jaw grips from Hare and Forbes and it should be here on Friday. They should be suitable to hold the inner and outer ram tubes as they have a horizontal V notch in each grip. I will keep trying to loosen feet and housing.

I sent an email to you, did you receive it?

Stuart
Stuart Duncan

sorry for the horrible english#it was my handy
no i haven t got an email
try it again
FT Franz

So far only worked on one RAM. I have tried heating the inner/outer tube flang but it still would not budge. from what ozzed out, I think I melted the seal inside of it. I held the outer tube in a large vice with Alunumium sleeves, but the ram kept turning, even though vice was as tight as I could get it, by hammering the vice handle until it wouldn't go any further.

Anyone got any other ideas on loosening the inner/outer flang.

I gave up and started work on the foot. It wouldn't budge with heat so I used Kevin's idea and hacksawed the inner tube against the foot. Vola, I was able to unscrew the foot by hand. How to find a workshop with a lathe to get a flat perpendicular end.

cheers
Stuart

Stuart Duncan

CAN YOU MAKE SOME PICTURES
how you have fixed it in the vice.
was the metal nearly red when you tried to open it
FT Franz

Franz, I heated the flang, but didn't get it red hot. I will see how I go today, after getting more gas.
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

A strip of emery paper in the clamp will help hold the tube from rotating. Works for me.

Safety Fast

Tony
The Classic Workshop
A L SLATTERY

Tony, thank you for the emery paper suggestion, because I heated the flang up again, it didn't go red but the whole of the outer tube was too hot to handle. I will try again tomorrow morning, too hot in the shed in the afternoon to do any work.
I was able to loosen the foot on the other Ram by sawing the inner tube next to the foot. Unscrewed the foot, then removed the pin holding spring to foot, and then the paint scraper in the spring slipped out, the spring retracted and the pipe elbow on top went flying across the shed. Yes I did find it.
Stuart Duncan

take a washer and cut a wedge in it, then it won't fly out, not without danger,
Don't saw it off, it works like that!
get gas and above all oxygen, otherwise it won't be hot enough.
I didn't believe it at first either, a locksmith helped me with the first part.
FT Franz

Well Franz - your process is most instructive, and the vimeo helps with preparation and subsequent reassembly. I prepared the first ram, cleaned everything up, and asked a friend if he could make up your slightly-conical device to feed the new seal into the ram foot. He walked around the bench for a while, huffed and puffed a bit, and had the new seal in place using just his hands, in two minutes! This was after I had assured him the manual method "couldn't be done" - a tactical masterstroke on my part!
Needless to say, I fed him a beer and engaged him to do the other 3 rams when I have cleaned them up, this coming week.
This is not to decry your alternative method - it is extremely helpful to have the record of how you did this difficult procedure.
If I can, I'll record my friend's next effort - whether successful or not! We might have to edit the language.
Yours,
John.
J P Hall

the question is
do you have the new seals sold by the octagon club or some old ones fro the octagon

the new one have harder rubber
and it wasn t possible to put them in by my hands or some otherthat was the reason i made the tool
if you want to translate it better, i can sent you my text
FT Franz

Franz - I honestly can't remember where I bought my seal set - I don't think it's from NTG or SVW, but someone might recognise the packaging or writing? I've had them in my garage for about 3 years, while I get on with life. I do notice that my ram seals look the same as yours - black rubber, pliable, no plastic centre as the SVW ones have been described; importantly, the black rubber ones like mine have a broad sealing surface like the originals. But boy, are they hard to insert!
After I release the remaining 2 feet tomorrow with the heat method, my mechanic friend intends to insert the ram seals like he did the first one. If he is successful, I shall be very grateful.
Keep up the good work.
John.


J P Hall

Finally took the 2 front Rams to a local engineering shop who used an Oxy set to heat and loosen and then removed the flanges. They also cleaned up the end of and polished the inner tubes. I still need to clean out both inner and outer tubes of gunk, before I put them back together.
The engineering shop is a father /son business which do a lot of work for classic car enthusiasts, but they had never seen these rams before. Said I would take MG YT around and do a demo when all is finished.

Started work on the distribution box /pump mechanism. First photo shows what I found when I removed the front plate (dried out crud and a filter with a hole), whilst the other photo shows the 2 outlet filters which are clogged and have holes. Where do I go to find replacement filters or are they not necessary?

The leaf spring is rusty and may need replacing.

The pumping mechanism works, but I will need to dismantle the whole pump to ensure there is no dirt / crud left anywhere.


cheers
Stuart






Stuart Duncan

looks horrible
but clean all and press new seals in,
the filter i would clean with hight pressure air
if you can look through it it should be good
FT Franz

Yikes! - that's not pretty, Stuart - but I'm sure the gunk will come away with judicious use of something like CLR, ultrasonic bath etc. Go easy with air pressure on the filters, of course.
I'm on a similar journey, last job before I can reunite the body with the chassis. Did you find the shakeproof washers up inside the ram tubes? - you can see the witness marks in the photo, and I assume their importance is to prevent the turning of the unions that you experienced above. I used a long extension to get the wire brush right up the ram tubes - might as well get it as clean as possible, as I don't plan to be around when they need doing again!
John.





J P Hall

Yes, the pump cover etc has cleaned up well.
Yesterday, I visited a couple of motorcycle parts shops to see if they had any filter similar to what is in the Pump assembly - no luck.
I have yet to put the parts in the Ultrasonic cleaner - will do that, this morning whilst I work on cleaning out the inside of the inner and out tubes. I will use a rifle brush - a bit narrow, but it should work.

After the ultra sonic cleaner, I will look at soldering up the holes in the filters.
Stuart

Stuart Duncan

Still on Franz' "Jackall Seals" subject, may I ask what people think about the external foot seal: my best original is only just over an inch i/d, so sits at the base of the internal ram below the dreaded gland flange; when the ram is retracted, the external seal is then squashed between the flange and the surface of the foot - like the attached photo where I have used a new round-section seal. In some photos I have seen, the external seal must have a larger i/d, as it sits lower, on the surface of the foot - where as far as I can see, it would provide no effective seal against water ingress.
What was the original arrangement? - and can it be improved upon?
Thanks all.
John.


J P Hall

Also Franz, your pdf was most helpful as an adjunct to Neil Cairns' excellent original article; one thing - in finishing the reassembly of the ram and tube, you say "fix the adapter at the top and the job is done" ... well, in my experience, that's not so easy. After the foot is reunited with the ram, the tube is slipped over the ram, the threaded part of the top union is eased through the hole in the tube, and then the outside portion of the top union screwed up. Problem is, I have carefully cleaned the spring sets, making sure that the end hooks revolve as they are supposed to. So - the role of the star washers inside the top of the rams is highlighted! - after some fiddling, the outside union will pull up the inside portion, and the star washer comes into play. "It might not happen overnight, but it will happen"!
To put this all in perspective, I have completed all mechanical restoration on the Y, including brakes, steering, suspension, engine rebuild (with an experienced friend), dash restoration, indicator clockwork mechanism, trafficator rebuild, ... the list goes on - and this rebuild of the Jackall rams ranks as the most challenging and frustrating job yet. I hope never to have to do it again!
Yours,
John.

J P Hall

Hi John
After looking at Neil Cairns' article on the MGCC/Y-Type Register website, in particular photo 16, I would suggest the O rings should sit on the outer section of the feet, so when the rams are retracted the O rings fits between feet and the flanges. I am thinking when I get to that stage of repair (hopefully next week for teh front 2 Rams) I may try and Araldite the O rings in posibition on the feet.

Does anyone have the dimensions of the copper crushable washes? 1 - between foot and inner tubes, 2 - inside ram flanges on to which the outer tubes screw down onto, and 3 - under the elbows on top of the outer rams.

This morning I will buy a couple of circular drill brushes that I can fit to drill bit extension, to clean out the inside of the tubes.
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

I thought that too, Stuart - but I now feel I'm getting a better seal with a one inch i.d. o-ring sitting on the end of the ram, instead of sitting on the top surface of the foot. See what you think!
J P Hall

John, were you able to get a video of your friend inserting the rubber seal into the flange? If so, can you send a copy of me at lesley (underscore) stuart(at) bigpond (dot)com

Another club member is waiting to see how I go before he starts work on his YT jackall rams etc.

cheers
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

Stuart I didn't, because he took the second two home and brought them back all done in the morning. What I'll do is I'll check with him and send you a note maybe with stills, as he'll revisit it for me. Swearing edited! John.
J P Hall

I would suggest the O rings should sit on the outer section of the feet, so when the rams are retracted the O rings fits between feet and the flanges

yes it is like this

the rubber stops the rams so they doesn t hit the ground.
so you can take what you want

the copper seal:
i bought some in a shop, they where a little bit to wide, i tried to cut it on my lathe
but it wasn t able for me
so i took the old one
one ram loose soem oil i took my vice and fixed it on the ram, all on the car, then i tighted it

now all 4 are ok

important is
do you have the seals from the old charge or seals from the new charge of the octagon club

the old one you are able to put in with your finers
the new one are so hard, that it isn t possible with the fingers, have tried it warmed them and so on

so take your ram seal rubber and try to press them ;-)
FT Franz

Franz and all - only those of us who've been there, know how significant is this achievement! Never again.
John.

J P Hall

the first one was difficult
but if you know what to do ;-)

it depends how rusty it is

would do it again but my rams are ok for the next 50 years ;-)

if you do it, you must have oxygen heat and good tools
FT Franz

All,

I believe the seal at the foot of the rams was originally of rectangular cross section, NOT an o-ring. The seal fit over the step in the foot of the ram and pressed snugly against the bottom of the body tube when the ram was retracted. New seals can be made from rubber tubing with an i/d the same as the diameter of the step.
BTW, the orig Smith's parts diagrams for the rams indicate the feet were painted RED, probably the same shade as that used on the top of the fluid reservoir can and pump selector ring under the hood, NOT black like the body of the rams.

Rocky
Rodney C "Rocky" von Dullen

Anybody got an ideal where I can purchase new copper washers for feet and under the inlet banjos and the oblong shaped ring seal that fits the foot and is mentioned by Rocky? I have been around the numerous local bolt and bearing suppliers today and they only have metric size copper washers and O rings.
cheers
Stuart
Stuart Duncan

Rocky - thank you, I knew about the red feet, but opted for black, masking off the foot seal of course. I'm not sure whether the Jackall external tubes were originally painted, but it seemed sensible to me as a bit of protection.

Stuart - same problem up here in the north, so for now I'm testing everything with the original washers, as they all look pretty good. The big skinny washers inside the gland carrier I annealed for good measure. Time will tell!
John.
J P Hall

This thread was discussed between 14/12/2020 and 26/03/2021

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