MG-Cars.info

Welcome to our Site for MG, Triumph and Austin-Healey Car Information.

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MG Y Type - MG Y suspension characteristics

One of the problem of not seeing another Y type for quite a while is that you forget what a Y in good condition is like so you can detect problems with your own car. Can I ask what the rear suspension is like in a really good Y or YB ....I find my rear suspension too 'hard' despite fitting (this time from NTG) properly rebuilt shock absorbers...I find that the distance between the rear axle on my YB and the bottom of the rear bump stop is different on each side...I did refurbish the rear springs a while back by fitting new rubber pieces between the leaves and they looked OK but can any one describe what sort of ride the YB should have at the rear particularly over bumps...maybe modern cars have softened me up too much and the Y is of its age but another view would be welcome.
D MULLEN

In my YA the ride over bumps causes the children to bang their heads against the roof.... I have learned to take it easy over bumps.
Willem vd Veer

Same with my YB only its the wife's head that hits the roof now that the children have grown up....surely things were not that bad back then..or maybe we have the same fault with our rear suspension...does fitting new rear springs help...I understand a batch was made recently by someone? Any other ideas anyone please..maybe its just getting older..never used to notice it when I was 28...
D MULLEN

Some time ago I spoke to an 'old hand' who used to make leaf springs. I asked him if I could powder coat the individual leaves and he was very clear about NOT doing that.
According to him you get the best result by leaving the leaves bare metal and as smooth as possible, for his top products he polished the metal to a shine.

All this was assembled with thick layers of grease between the leaves. After assembly the springs were wiped clean and painted black, but he said the paint never held long.

The 'smooth-bare-metal-and-grease-method' would produce the most supple and compliant spring.

So Dave, could you kindly 'do' your springs again as described above and report back the results? ;-)
Willem vd Veer

The problem is that without the rubber between the leaves it lowers the ride height a bit and anyway rubber inter leaving is the way the factory set them up. Has anyone who has fitted new rear springs (a batch were made up recently by the MGCC I think) noticed an improvement in the ride..I cant believe such a bumpy rear ride (harsh really) is normal.....as I say the shock absorbers are now fine so it must be the rear spring set up (or something else?)...any one else got a comment? If there is a Y type owner(prefer YB) near Liverpool I would be interested in having a sit in your car to compare notes!
Can the springs be fitted wrongly and how would I know?
D MULLEN

The re-run of rear leaf springs was arranged by David Pelham and Neil Coombes David and was brought to us through the IMGYTR. The MGCC and the MGCC Y Register are not permitted (by the rules of the MGCC) to supply parts other than "regalia" parts. The springs are actually availble from Brost Forge - please see http://www.mgcars.org.uk/imgytr/links.shtml and check under <SUPPLIERS> then <Springs and Suspension>.

Paul
Paul Barrow

Thanks for the info Paul but I still need to know what other Y owners experience with their rear spring 'ride'..is it "comfortable" over bumps etc or is banging your head on the roof and a harsh ride the norm?
D MULLEN

Although I cannot help you yet, I should be able to let you know what the ride is like with reconditioned shockers and new springs from Brost forge, with poly bushes and poly spring pads fitted,in the spring when hopefully my newly restored YA will be on the road.

However my fully restored MGTD fitted with new springs(with poly pads), reconditioned shockers and poly bushes all round,is a lovely ride , I would describe it as a comfortable ride which absorbs most of the the bumps. The poly bushes and pads were supplied from polybush and were classed as comfort grade,

Hope this helps Chris
C A Pick

The thing is David suspension is a combination of things. The shocks will only take out the sharp impacts. The axle itself relies heavily on the springs so no matter how good the shocks are, if the springs are simply holding the axle in place and not providing SPRING then the car will bob around. At least that is my simple understanding - is there someone who is more technically competent out there to support or trash my "theory" please?

Paul
Paul Barrow

Do you have rubber strips between the leaves or just the rubber pads at the end to stop the rattling?

I don't think the Y springs have rubber strips, my MGB had some kind of strip between the leaves, but I don't know what material that was.

You say that the rubber pads help with the rideheight. This may indicate the leaves nee retempering?
Willem vd Veer

The real problem is that the car is of the 1930s, and to have hydraulic dampers was a real advance. The lessons learnt from the aircraft industry still hadn't filtered down to Abingdon. In my opinion the relation between the spring period, car weight and the damping rate was not understood. Some years ago I fitted a pair of rear dampers from a 105e Anglia and straight away I could feel an improvement, It realy needs a specialist to investigate the problem since the front and rear springing are clearly out of step as one would expect since they were designed by differant people. Recently I fitted a set of poly bushes to the YA rear spring shackles, the result was that although they did not help the spring rate has given the directional stability second only to my modern car, even though it is running on cross plys. I am afraid that our modern delicate posteriors are not accustomed to being kicked.

Bryan
B Mellem

Thanks for all the comments - just for info Bryan - how did you fit the Anglia rear dampers? - are they a direct swap??
D MULLEN

The Anglia dampers almost fit, The fixing bolt holes require another hole to be drilled through the chassis, and a spacer to fit inside the chassis to stop you collapsing the chassis sides if one is too enthusiastic with a spanner, although I didnt bother. Fitting them did prevent as Willem found the children being knocked out. I do suggest that a better solution can be found, firstly by swollowing ones pride and buying a classic Ford magazine where you will find specialists for early Cortinas etc which is a more heavy car, and may be similar to the Y type in weight. This is not to say that there isn't other makes of cars which could be even better, in fact with more research you could get a perfect match. A photo of my effort to follow. Bryan
B Mellem

[position 1] is the new hole I drilled which is so close to the chassis top web I thought didnt require a spacer. The damper is at a strange angle because by using the existing forward mounting hole the damper needed to be tilted to get the pistons as near the same in the cars unloaded position. sorry if I'm as clear as mud. the drop arm aligned up just right with the existing axle mounting [position 2]. note the Ford damper lever is about 2" longer than the MG damper lever arm. Bryan

B Mellem

Thanks for this Bryan, very interesting to see the set up - my car is a YB so different axle arrangement etc but it does show how you can modify things to suit.
D MULLEN

Dave,
The Y was marketed as a 'Sports Saloon' so the suspension, presumably, would have been a bit on the hard side to start with. What concerned me was that you've now noticed some dimensional differences at the springs.
The YB W'shop Manual is very precise about these springs, and I thought 'Has he put them back wrong? - no, probably not' Then it clicked, reading the Manual on having them re-cambered & re-tempered.
Your springs have lost their springiness and have softened over the years and now need re-tempering. This used to be done regularly years ago.
The spring-damper combination is critical to the ride, and what you have are new dampers with old, soft springs which is why the ride is now too hard.
I am not keen at all on the suggestion of replacing YB dampers by Ford 105e dampers. The YB is nearly 1.4 times heavier than the 105e which is why Bryan notices a better ride - the 105e dampers will be softer, matching the now soft YB springs. Also, as an aside, if, heaven forbid, you were to be involved in a serious accident, your insurance could be put in question.
While Google-ing Brost Springs (from Paul's note) I also found Owen Springs in Rotherham. They seem to provide a similar service (I've no connection with either firm).

Re Willem's note on greasing these springs. I seem to recall seeing cars from the 20's having their springs wrapped in heavy canvass and laced up to protect the grease. (I must make it plain - this was at shows - I wasn't around in the 1920's !!!) If this greasing wasn't done, the leaves would corrode and seize together, destroying the spring characteristics. Putting rubber (now plastic) inserts between the leaves prevents this seizure and has been found to have little or no effect on the load-deflection characteristics of the spring.

TonyK
A B Knowles

Thanks for this Tony...you are probably correct in that after 60 years the old springs are well past their sell by date - will make enquiries about new springs at contacts you suggest.
D MULLEN

On my springs there are no inserts between the leaves, so I'm thinking about greasing the leaves. That should improve/restore the characteristics of the springs?
Willem vd Veer

When I considered towing a caravan I did have new springs made for the YA but it was soon clear that the puny dampers are just not up to the job. You will notice that most pre 1940s cars tend to hop around a bit, and as I am of a certain age can confirm that they did so when new [or nearly new]. If one wants to enjoy the flavour of the period and the car as it was produced remember the traffic then travelled very much slower than now, and a cross country average speed would be around 30mph, 40mph and you needed a stiff Whisky afterwards. It was not often you could reach 70mph and very few cars could even make 50mph.

As a matter of interest towing the caravan with the Anglia I found if a bump in the road deflected one side of the car, the supple rear spring would tend to wind up so twisting slightly the axle, thus stearing the car to one side. Anti tramp rods cleared this problem. As I say if the car is to be used outside the manufacturers perameters such as modern traffic speeds then you must expect some difficulties. Its a matter of personal choice

Bryan
B Mellem

I spoke to Owens Springs in Rotherham..they can supply rear springs for the Y type - however he was not aware they had rubber pads between the springs or that the leaves had holes in them to accomodate the pip on the rubber pads. Presumably Brost Springs as also mentioned supply them with the correct inter leaving pads??
D MULLEN

Just for info Brost Forge supply also without the rubber inter leaving pads unless you specify them or supply them as the price of the rubber pads is not cheap for some reason!
Just for info has any Y owner had new springs made up and did you have the rubber pads put in and what was the final cost?
D MULLEN

Dave,

Please be aware, I received springs ordered from Brost Forge a few months ago and was disappointed as they had not drilled the springs and fitted the correct type pads, they had just stuck small pieces of 1/8 rubber on each leaf with contact adhesive !!!!!! These came off when I stripped the springs for painting. I did not take the issue up with Brost as they were ordered through another party.

I then had to drill each leaf myself, which is not an easy job as they are hardened and tempered, I then fitted poly spring pads supplied from www.polybush.co.uk which are not cheap but will last a lifetime.

I also believe Dave Pelham can supply rubber interleave pads reasonably priced.

Another supplier is the MG octagon car club http://www.mgcars.org.uk/octclub/spares.htm

when I spoke to them earlier in the year they told me they could supply with or without spring pads, however I made the wrong choice and went for the Brost Forge ones, you live and learn!!!

Cheers Chris
C A Pick

MGOCC ones do not have the rubber pads....h'mmmm...the whole point of the rubber pads is to obviate the need to oil or grease the springs...I suspect it has more to do with the cost of the rubber pads which I hear is not cheap despite them being a simple rubber pad with a raised pip in the centre....may be better to take an old spring to a spring manufacturer and get him to just copy the old ones rubber pads and all.
D MULLEN

MG B rear springs look the same as YB ....am I imagining this ???
D MULLEN

Dave,

According to my Workshop manuals they may look the same but aren't. They are too 'light' for the job.

The working load for the YB is 650 lb, MGB's are early/later 400/450 and GT's 510 lb.

The YB has 7 leaves, the MGB 5 + bottom plate.

I don't have the dimensions of the MGB spring but the YB should measure 42,5" in compressed state.
Willem vd Veer

Thanks for the info Willem...by the way it looks like all replacement Y rear springs do not have rubber betweeen the leaves unless you specify it with the manufacturer...cost of the rubber parts seems to be the reason...as the manual specifies a reason for these rubber inserts it would make sense to have them if you are going to replace the rear springs - it also increases ride height too I believe.
D MULLEN

Dave,

I have been totally frustrated by my experiences with this spring thing.....

A few years ago the Octagon club could not supply Y type springs to me as they had run out of stock and needed sufficient advanced orders to make it worthwhile having another batch made.

I talked to seven spring manufacturers, including the company that supplies MGOCC, to try and get a suitable set for the YA....to cut a long story short no one wanted to bother making similar looking springs.
They all wanted to supply properly tempered fully functioning items without the period details.

I particularly wanted the feathered or tapered ends to the leaves.... they all wanted to supply roughly cropped un-tapered leaves.
Neither could I get interest in the drilling of the holes to accommodate the 'inter-leaf pads'

I eventually gave up the hunt and, once they were back in stock, bought a pair from the MGOCC.
These had no tapered ends and no inter-leaf pads.
Additionally the 'spring clips' which hold the longer leaves together were narrower than original and did not have the rubber angle inserts as per the original.

I have drilled the leaves, bought the rubber inter-leaf pads and made new wider spring clips to accommodate the angle rubbers within the clips....this is the nearest I could get to the original look.

Having gone to all this trouble....I have no idea whether the function of the springs will be better or worse. (still at rolling chassis stage)

The inter-leaf rubbers, I understand, were introduced to prevent the ends of the lower leaves digging in to the underside of the adjacent upper leaf....was this really necessary and if so was the same applied to any later MG?

If your information regarding the pads being fitted to obviate lubrication is correct...I cant see the logic there either. Surely a well greased leaf will function better than a leaf trying to slide against another with a compressed rubber disc between them?

Drilling holes in the ends of the leaves just seems to me to provide a weakness at an area of great stress?

Also I have no idea why the angle rubbers were fitted to the wider spring clips.

In relation to your comment about ride height....once the inter-leaf pads are inserted and the main central spring bolt tightened the spring tends to 'flatten out' the leaves still come into contact at their centre ie at the axle therefore I would think that any ride height difference would be negligible. In any case the maximum effect of the interleaf pads would be 6mm.

I admit that I tend to be almost 'anal' about originality but I have to say that sometimes I think I'm just 'pissing in the wind'.

I know that you are a totally practical guy who just wants to enjoy the car so my advice would be to buy a pair of stock modern spec springs from the MGOCC and forget about all the bloody rubber bits!

Glad you got your dampers sorted.

Rob
Rob King

Rob - I share your frustration - maybe someone like Neil Cairns may know the answer- I am not bothered how the springs look only that they function correctly and give a decent ride....as for the rubber pads the manual says it oviates the need for greasing /lubricating the springs- prior to this springs rusted and then started to squeak if you did not oil/grease them or so am I am told... MGOCC say they have had no complaints...its cheaper if you get your own springs retempered by the way but no guarantee this will last.....not sure why?
D MULLEN

Here's an opinion re the TD rear springs...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/MG-Car-Repair-3786/2010/12/Rear-springs.htm
D MULLEN

You can get leaf spring assisters if they are tired...

http://www.graystonengineering.com/leaf%20spring%201%20main.htm
D MULLEN

Also read this.....even more confused now

http://www.mgccyregister.com/node/18212
D MULLEN

Dave, the rear springs I removed from my YA also had no spring pads, but were worn thin ( nearly half the size of the thickness of the leaf) where each leaf rubbed against the spring above, adjacent to where the rubber spring pad fits. Therefore I suggest that the rubber pad protects the leafs from wear by removing the friction of each spring rubbing against each other as the spring operates.

Leaf springs fitted to modern pick up trucks and lorrys do not have spring pads, the springs are just renewed when they break, which in my experience in heavy industry happened regularly on our vehicals used over rough terrain.

I chose to fit poly spring pads to improve the ride comfort and give some longevity to the life of the springs.

Chris
C A Pick

I think you are correct - I cant see MG fitting the rubber pads just for the sake of it. I think if you are going to the trouble of getting new springs it's something you should take into account. I may just get my existing springs re-tempered.
D MULLEN

Just to add more to the debate I e mailed Mike Green of NTG who tells me that the replacement Y rear springs they sell have never had the rubber pads in and they have never had any complaints. The MGA and subsequent MG models didn't have the rubber pads either.
D MULLEN

You will still go bouncy bouncy down the road with new springs. Its the dampers that keep the wheels on the ground!
B Mellem

May I add one or two points which hopefully will relieve some of Rob's frustrations regarding the rear spring design & I hope not too nerdish!

The tapered ends - for any individual leaf this is the point of lowest stress. The maximum stress will occur near the bolt clamping the leaves together at the spring centre, under the rear axle.
I'm not too sure about this next point, but I think the taper is to go some way in relieving any sudden change in the local stiffness of the spring assembly at that location. It is possibly no longer considered an important factor.
The rubber inserts are to hold the leaves apart, obviating squeaks in the first instant, but also stopping the leaves from seizing together due to corrosion. Yes, greasing is possibly a better option, but bear in mind the original design life of the car, 10 - 12 years or so? and only now after 60 years, these springs are needing attention. Perhaps this was the start of having increased service intervals!

These & the other rubber Silentbloc inserts were to ensure a silent, smooth ride. Non of this is essential, of course, and possibly OTT, but as the Y was conceived as an upmarket saloon this sort of attention to detail would be reflected in its list price, and, indeed expected.

I think, on reflection, for its time, the Y rear spring design was pretty good, needing little or no attention at all under normal circumstances.

Hope this helps

Tony K

A B Knowles

This thread was discussed between 30/08/2012 and 15/09/2012

MG MG Y Type index

This thread is from the archives. Join the live MG MG Y Type BBS now