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MG MGA - Negative camber

I have a 1962 Mark II with a large amount of negative camber on both front wheels. It was this way when I bought the car. I have checked the suspension and have not found any wear. Everything is tight and the car handles great. Zero toe in/toe out. Probably a great setup for racing but I'm not sure it's needed for normal cruising. I am not sure how it was set this way since there isn't any way to adjust the camber angle. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jim Bowe

I bet you haven't got as much negative camber as this! see picture.

Lindsay Sampford

I have deliberate Negative camber on my car cos I think it is great. It is achieved by the bottom a fframe arms being made longer. These used to be for sale from many MG vendors so I assume your car has been fitted with them. I am sure you would be able to flog 'em when you take them off. :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Jim


Please post a picture I have not seen neggy on an A. I bet it helps the handling no end. IS THIS A GOOD MODIFICATION ? DOSE ANY ONE KNOW IF EXTENDED BOTTOM LINKS ARE AVAILABLE?

David
David swaine

David - Try Brown and Gammons. Part Number STN 1008.
Its in their catalogue but whether they still have them I dont know but I'm sure the racer boys use them so they must be out their somewhere. You could also try Bob West.
David
D C GRAHAME

Moss sells the extended lower links for the MGB and they will fit the A. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=13356

Bill Young

Hi Jim, My Mga is set up with slight negative camber on the front combined with lowered suspension all round and a front anti roll bar.
The negative camber makes the steering VERY responsive and quite heavy. This is great for fast country roads and makes it fun to drive but at very high speeds, you have to be very careful not to put too rapid an input to the steering. If you do this or if the car hits a bump or pot hole on one of the front wheels, you can, in an instant, find yourself on the wrong side of the road or on the grass.
I think maybe the lowered and stiffened suspension makes my car even more twitchy than usual for a negative camber set up.
So for cruising I think it is not ideal but for shear fun, it is excellent.
On a thread last year we discussed this subject and it was suggested that I add a liitle toe-in to the steering geometry which should help to dial this out. I havent done this yet, just waiting for the lighter nights, but I will be trying it out over the next week or two.
I have uploaded the only picture I could find of the front end of the car which shows the slight negative camber.
Colyn

Colyn Firth

Colyn


Thanks for the picture It dosn't look very negative and I welcome your comments I have had a little go at adjusting the suspension I am using 600lb front springs that are 1" shorter than the 480 standard I also run the 5/8 anti roll bar and v8 rubber bushes. Although the springs are stiffer and shorter the car sits about the same hight as the 480s sag more.
On Brown and Gammonds advice I left the back end soft and standard. I did try rear Spax tellys but I need to keep my fillings so they are up for sale if any one wants them for racing.. I was interested to hear that the negative camber makes the steering heavy. I have to admit my steering is heavy and my wife dos'nt like to drive the car. so I may as you suggest trying a little bit of toe in. But for all the faults of the heavt steering the vehicle dose go in a stright line even at over a ton I can take my hand off the wheel.
The car is in for it MOT soon so I will ask about putting in a little toe in.

David
David swaine

I just found the thread that I remember having a similar discussion about both negative camber and toe in.
Adjusting the steering with toe-in or toe-out can have significant effects on the handling especially so if there is any negative camber on the front suspension.
If you look up " toe in " in the MGA archive earlier this year, you will see that Barney Gaylord and Robert (Bob) have some great advice on this subject.

Colyn
Colyn Firth

This thread got me thinking about toe-in as I inherited from my Father-in-Law an interesting home-made tracking device from the 30s that I have just been fiddling around with. It suddenly occurred to me that the quoted toe-in measurements for any vehicle are only valid for the supplied wheel drum. As soon as anyone fits a different diameter drum, the figures go out of the window and it goes down to personal feel of the driving characteristics. I guess I am only talking minute measurements but, with a toe-in, the difference between the front of the drum track measurement and the rear of the drum track measurement will result in a greater angle of toe-in in with a 14" drum than with a 15" drum.

This may be blindingly obvious to many seasoned campaigners, but has only just dawned on me!

Steve
Steve Gyles

Do you still have stock MGA uprights?

You can not fit the negative camber A arms to an MGA that has been converted to MGB uprights as it produces excessive camber.
Bill Spohn

What exactly do you mean by the "wheel drum" Steve? do you mean the total diameter of the entire wheel and tyre assembly?

I suppose you could work out the toe-in in degrees by comparing the inside measurements at both the rear-most and foremost points of the tyres and then using the tangent formula (Tangent of angle = opposite / adjacent ) divided by 2.

Probaby easier to get someone with a guage to do it for us!

Colyn
Colyn Firth

Bill,

I was planning to fit both the negative camber A arms and the MGB uprights. Are you saying that the MGB uprights alone will result in negative camber without the longer A arms?

Ken
k v morton

Colyn

Just the metal bit - the rims. That's what my bit of kit measures. Bit past the log tables at my time of life. Was that you in the photo with your car?

Mine are parallel, so the maths is easy.

I may post a photo of my tracking rod. Quite easy to make.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve

By my calculations to account for the difference between 14 and 15 inch rims, you would have to be able to measure a track difference of .004" for 1/8" toe-in to maintain the same wheel angle. I think that would be unmeasurable with home methods.
John DeWolf

Steve,
yes it was me collecting the car listening to the Master.
I remember driving it home ( only about 5 miles away )being a bit taken aback by the sheer "old fashionness" of it, (I hadnt driven an MGA since 1979). Then I caught a glimpse in the mirror of the stupid grin I was wearing and knew then I was going to love it.
Back to the thread, I think I have decided to get the toe-in set up by an expert, will let you know how it changes things.
Colyn
Colyn Firth

The book toe specs are measured at the tyre tread, on the wheel horizontal center line. Differences caused by any wheel/tyre that would normally be fitted to any particular car model are unmeasurable and insignificant. Measuring on any other diameter means the given figures are incorrect, and must be adjusted for the difference, in proportion.

You cannot go badly wrong by setting toe at parallel, and in fact radial tyres are usually better off nearer parallel than at the usual old book settings of 1/8" or so. So I was instructed by the best and pickiest front end man I ever met, c1970. I use half the book number as a baseline.

The "correct" old time way is to jack the wheels up, chalk the tread surface, scribe a line in said chalk with wheels turning. Then lower the car, roll it back and forth a few inches and wriggle the steering to let the wheels & suspension find their true position. Measure the distance at front and rear between your lines.

They used to have a nice drive-over device that recorded the thrust angles as you drove over it, and showed the effective toe on a nice little scale. This was mostly used as a selling point by good shops, since it was not accurate enough for setting.

Now they use computers, optical devices, and angles. And your money. Results depend on how careful the guy setting it up is; I've seen the optical target reflectors set on bent wheels, which is a total waste of time and cash.

There being no competent alignment shop near me or convenient in terms of hours and such, I have taken to setting things with stretched strings from front to rear; and carpenter's levels and plumb lines for camber etc. The biggest source of error, beyond sloppy work, is bent wheels. It takes a little thought and calculation to do stuff like camber adjustments or correction for track differences frt/rear, or 4 wheel independent things, but it's most convenient. And my tyre wear and handling are excellent after so doing.

FRM
Fletcher R Millmore

The MGA Workshop Manual clearly says measurements are referenced to "wheel rims" in Section J.10. With the wheels parallel it doesn't matter where the measurement is taken.
John DeWolf

Jim,
I hope you got what you wanted from this thread , its kind of evolved into a discussion about toe-in.
But if you have a negative camber front end, it is relevent.
Let us know how you are doing
Colyn
Colyn Firth

My MGA books have gone walkies, but the TD/TF and MGB books also say wheels or wheel rims, with an indeterminate drawing that seems to show measurement to either the rim edge or the fattest part of the sidewall. The MGB version seems specific to the rims. The Magnette book has the same wording "wheels", and a similar drawing, BUT, it then goes on to tell you exactly how to measure this:
"Place the trammel to the rear of the wheels and adjust to the centre of the tyre treads. Chalk the tread of the tyres and mark the chalked spot with the trammel vertically. Push the car forward one half-turn of the wheels and take the front reading from the same marks."

This is in agreement with every professional front end guy I ever saw do it, and is clearly the easiest and most accurate measurement. You pays your money, and...

Back to camber, I too would like some elaboration re Bill Spohn's comment. Seems to me if you have MGB swivel pins and shocks, then it's just like an MGB. Perhaps MGA shocks with MGB swivels is what Bill is talking about?

FRM
Fletcher R Millmore

Yes, if you use the negative camber A arms you'll hit around 2 deg. negative. If you fit the MGB uprights on an MGA and also use those A arms, you'll close to double the negative camber - too much for street use.

Just do one or the other.
Bill Spohn

Bill,

Is that regardless of whether you use MGA or MGB shocks with the MGB uprights?

Ken
k v morton

This thread was discussed between 26/03/2010 and 05/04/2010

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