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MG MGA - Splash Plate rivet tool discovered

I think I have discovered the correct tool for forming the splash plate rivets. The rivets were most likely made in Aylesbury UK by the bifurcated rivet company http://www.bifandtub.co.uk/companyhistory.html. The company used to make 100 million rivets per day!

I spoke to someone at the company and although they stopped making rivets years ago there was still someone who knows how to form them. The tool is shown in the photo and uses a foot operated press. That allows the hands to be kept free for holding the work. The person who is now self employed and nearly retired, formed my rivets in about 30 minutes. The shape is not perfect because the rivets are not the same at the originals and maybe the tool form was not exactly as deep as the original. However the principle is the same.

Photos show my original plate against new one old rivet form and the tooling.
Series of photos on http://s1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/johnhfrancis/MGA%20rebuild/Splash%20Plates/



John Francis

John, I searched and searched the net myself looking for a tool that would set the same rivets you have. The one difference I see between the old and new is the new is just spread out flat where the old actually curves which probably holds better because it is cinched up. I did find one site where a gentlemen had welded extra metal to the jaws of an old pair of vice grips and then used a round file to make the necessary shape to spread out the rivets in the correct curve/arch as the original.
Richard Taylor TD3983

This subject and the accompanying photos are particularly interesting.We could be looking at the very last British manufacturing process in operation before his house/machine/body are turned into a heritage centre /art gallery or put onto a low loader( a la Longbridge) and carted off to China.

There was an article in Classic Bike mag a while ago as to why the classic British motorbike scene still survives and one of the reasons was that " we have geniuses in brown dustcoats".

BTW,population of China went up 70 million in the last decade,India 80 million.
M Blencowe

John, What size (length and diameter) of bif. rivets did you use and were they close to your originals? Thanks....................Mike
m.j. moore

Mike

I bought them from Bob West. They were no. 9 rivets about 1/8" dia. They were a bit different from the originals which I think had rounded tips. You can just make that out on the photo. The new ones had squared off ends and are probably a bit longer. I'll see if I can dig out the new ones and measure one if I remember where I put them. Interestingly I didn't realise that bif rivets have their own unique size system that doesn't relate to any other product.



John Francis

Thanks John. Did you see the super tin that Bif and Tub used to supply the rivets? See pic.

And inside the tin are the instructions for DIY rivet setting i.e.

' Drive the Rivets through the material into a board or the end of a block of wood, which will receive the tips of the prongs. Turn the material over, rest the head of Rivet on a smooth iron or solid surface, spread the prongs and then hammer smooth. Care should be taken to select Rivets to suit thickness of goods to be mended. A Rivet 1/16th inch longer than the thickness of material for hard leather, and 1/8th inch longer for spongy leather will give good results.

It surprised me that the recommended length is only a 1/16" longer than the material thickness . This would put the length required at no more than 1/4"?..................Mike


m.j. moore

Mike

That tin is just lovely, perfect and with Aylesbury ducks. Hadn't seen that before. On the length the chap who helped me with the riveting an ex Bif and Tub employee gave me some rivets to restore my dash mirror which are half hollow and was very precise about the length needed.

The original rivets are 5/16" long shank 0.152" dia which as I suspected is an odd size and head dia 5/16". They are not really round tipped.
John Francis

Those instructions would be for punching the rivet through a piece of leather and setting it with a hammer. End result would be flattened ends, not curled. The MGA splash seal application is entirely different.
Barney Gaylord

Very easy to make a set for this, since it is only two legs. Harder to describe, since I have no drawing skills on this device!

What is needed is a semicircular groove to cause the rivet legs to return. You can see it in the pics first given, but that is a turned groove and you do not need it for two legged rivets.

Using a piece of 1/8 or 3/16 flat stock, drill two holes, centered to leave the width of the rivet slot between them, about .050". Holes about .080-.090. The hole size determines the radius of the rivet leg return. Saw off the piece through the holes, leaving the full hole diameter on the "good" side. You can saw it longer, leaving the center rib long enough to act as a stop suitable for your application and rivets, then file the rib to be parallel at the extended end. Also file the outer shoulders to leave 180 degrees of the hole or somewhat less. It only takes slightly more than 90 deg to cause the legs to return.

Perhaps a better compugeek than I can draw this for all to see?

I had to figure this out for an application where I needed to split a 1/8" tubular rivet reliably/evenly into six legs (for appearance) and return the legs into the fabric (so it couldn't catch on anything). And since it was a production tool, it had to be hardened tool steel.

FRM
FR Millmore

FRM

The benefit of the turned tool is that you don't have to align the rivet legs up. The end of the rivet just needs centering over the tool and it works in any rotational alignment which was necessary for production volumes. I am only conveying the message from an expert who has been in the field for many years. When we did mine the full set of 40 rivets was done in less than 30minutes. John
John Francis

John -
Yes I realize all that, I was offering a solution for those who have access to neither lathe nor your wonderful relict artisan. The secret being the semicircular groove which causes the curved return of the prongs.

FRM
FR Millmore

Have I missed some technical point with these rivets? I assumed they were used originally to avoid having to provide holes in the rubber seals as you would have to when using screws, conventional rivets or even pop rivets. I also assumed, until Barney’s comment got me thinking again, that the heads of the rivets were against the metal and the forked rivet ends returned to bite into the rubber but after just managing to see John’s photos I see that the rivets are the other way around with the forked ends against the metal.

So why is it necessary to go to all the trouble to form the rivets in this way? Surely just hammering them flat against the metal (as in the Bif & Tub instructions) would give enough tension to give an acceptable seal? Is it to avoid too sharp a bend in the forks and the possibility of breaking them?…………………………Mike
m.j. moore

Mike My guess is that the standard tooling used just made them into that shape and I guess to avoid the sharp bend as you say.

FRM, sorry I was being pedantic and rather pleased with myself for discovering the relic! It was one of those archaeological finds.
John Francis

Back in the early 70s, we were rebuilding MGAs a lot, before there were any repro parts. There were few cars that had been "restored", and many that had not been touched. Even then, it was a constant source of endless discussion re how the seals attached. It's been too long to remember, but there seemed to be more than one version or method, and possibly multiple seals types. The parts lists I have have tiny pictures showing the rivet and seal at the front of the RR wheel, but it is difficult to get any good idea from it. That rivet appears to have the head facing front, prongs to the rear.
I see that Scarborough Faire offer the rivets as a set of 56.
I think it is more usual to fit the rivets so the legs go in the soft material, but you can argue that either way. I've seen so many similar constructions that it is impossible to say how any particular one "was".
Anyway, I was just telling folk how they could make nice curly legged rivets, if they think that is what they want.
And John, such finds are always to be treasured, if with some sadness. I've found hundred year old stone saws still running - I'm afraid to return; and once walked into a place that had about 50 different machines for winding and forming coils and armatures of any size or shape for electric motors and generators - empty building next I returned. And about 1988, a complete c1870 quarry in Vermont, still operating with all its original equipment and machine shop, nothing modern; by 1995 just a big hole full of water.

FRM
FR Millmore

This thread was discussed between 02/05/2011 and 19/05/2011

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