MG-Cars.info

Welcome to our Site for MG, Triumph and Austin-Healey Car Information.

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MGB Technical - Waterless Coolant Revisited

On a previous thread discussing waterless coolant I was rather scathing about it's properties. We had a race engine eat its rear two pistons twice and the only reason we could see was a change from water to waterless coolant. The engine has now finished a race at long last with no signs of overheating at all.

I attach a picture of the best power curves we could achieve with and without waterless coolant. There is no difference at all in engine specs or ancillary specs, all down to running on water or waterless coolant in the engine/rad. With the waterless coolant we had to retard the ignition to stop pinking hence the lack of power at lower rpms. We even had to drop the cr on the rear cylinders with shims under the plugs. The top end lack of power mainly comes down to the viscosity of the waterless coolant plus poor igniton. It takes more bhp to drive the coolant with the water pump as it is thicker than water. John who runs the car was spot on when he said...I reckon the waterless gloop costs bhp to pump it!

The uplift at the end of the power curves happens if I lift off power just before I press the stop record button and it fools the software as the pau momentarily has no inertia as there is a cush drive twixt rollers and pau with a fraction of 'soft' clearance.

This has cost me two engine builds in terms of labour as my warranty is free labour with customer paying for parts if a race engine dies prematurely.

Peter

Peter Burgess Tuning

Peter,
Always thought Evans above, when I read the blurb. Sounds too good to be true, and seemingly so it is. Plus it's bloody expensive too.
Al
Allan Reeling

Anything organic has a much lower conductivity than water!
Art Pearse

I am keen to discuss PB's report with him in full detail as soon as possible. In the meantime my initial response based on many 1000's of successful MG conversions is that other mechanical factors must also be in play.

Evans coolants are used by many racing teams that previously suffered power loss due to over heating (with water). Specifically vapour production around the combustion zone led to hot-spots, pinking and seized pistons. Prior to their recent switch to Evans, Honda carried out lengthy field and factory tests to prove the benefits we claim. Those tests proved very successful and Evans are now Hondas technical partner for cooling systems. A similar process was completed for Kawasaki, Kamaz-Master (who achieved 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the most recent Dakar Rally using Evans), Mosler Racing, Holden Racing etc.

Evans coolants are more viscous than water, but at the high running temperatures as found in engines the additional absorbed HP is very, very small and has not been previously identified as a problem and especially not enough of a reason to switch back to water.

In these situations our policy is to join the dots and if one dot appears as an anolmaly it is usualy just that. We would relish the opportunity to turn this around with Peter and prove to him Evans 'does what it says on the tin'.

Cheers, Steve Hickson www.evanscoolants.co.uk

Ste Brown

The above thread and subject was brought to my attention on Friday 12th and somehow the reply I provided has been funnelled through Ste Brown's account. I don't know how this happened but wish to make it clear that all the info provided it that earlier response was from Evans UK and not Ste Brown. We apologise for any irritation caused but confirm it was unintentional.
Regards, Steve Hickson
SJ Hickson

I am not really interested in delving any deeper. As I said this has cost two engine builds and the only thing not in common with the first two was waterless coolant was not used with the engine that has run ok. This problem I understand has not only been with one of my engines. Whether other folk come forward or not I do not know. Many folk do not admit they have problems.

We have used all the same components on all the builds. Fresh bearings and cam followers each time and two pistons for cylinders 3 + 4. The bores have been honed each time. The piston clearances have always been good. Until we ran the engine on water we struggled with pinking and heating problems and subsequent damage to rear pistons in race conditions. The pistons are JE competition ones. We have measured bores and pistons on each build as one would expect with any build. This is the first engine I have ever lost more than once! Everyone has a problem now and then and tries everything to stop it happening again.
I mixed the fuel on each occasion, superunleaded + additive.

Water rejects heat better than waterless coolant, physical fact. To make the system reject the same amount of heat we would have to tell the customer to buy new huge radiator, water pump pulley and whatever other mods we find we have to make to the water jacket/head system to make it safe. Now my contention is this situation of 'more than adequate cooling' has already been obtained using a good radiator and water. Why should the customer invest a lot of money to achieve what he already has? I feel for our race purposes the waterless cleaner is no good and very expensive compared to water.



Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

I would like to repost your comment
"and prove to him Evans 'does what it says on the tin'."

What it doesnt say on the tin is that it takes more bhp to pump it than water so it cannot 'maximise bhp' as it says on the tin.

Saying how Evans work with the main manufacturers,we are talking Clubman racing where people run to a budget and do not need to develop special cooling systems in partnership with Evans.

None of our older cars would pass modern cooling tests as run by manufacturers. They are old fashioned and require respect and knowledge.

I am not prepared to offer any warranty on any of my cylinder heads, engines or rolling road tuning if waterless coolant is used in the radiator system.

Peter

Peter Burgess Tuning

I couldn't add this last part until I was at work and could check up some power figures.
When the customer's engine died for the second time he fitted an old less powerful engine as a stop gap. We dynoed this and it made 20% less power than the 'proper' race engine. It subsequently, slowly got too hot on the track and the customer seeing the sypmtoms added two and two together as this engine had never run hot before and couldnt be cos PB had built it wrong as PB didnt build it, changed back to water and the engine ran as cool as you like. This is what the customer felt was the 'proof' he needed to tell me about the waterless coolant he had put in at the beginning of the season.
I have lost four engines since 1987 down to cooling problems.
One race engine popped first race and the customer then fitted his old engine only to have that overheat too.....turns out the new Far East radiator had solid 'tubes' and allowed no cooling!
Another race engine died when it was being run in on a race track. Blocked rad caused this.(That is why we like to dyno all our race engines to ensure we have no 'silly' problems)
The hardest one to find was a Swiss road engine. The cause of this failure was a plastic impeller not 'glued' to the water pump shaft properly and free rotating!
The fourth engine is the one with the waterless coolant.

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

I was just emailed this link from a piston heads topic by a Physicist friend. Makes interesting reading

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=12&t=1269629&nmt=


Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

I can see that we will have to agree to differ and do not want to enter in to a disagreement if PB's mind is made up.

Evans intention is not to call anyone's reputation in to question but rather to respond and constructively answer forum comments that call the efficacy of Waterless Engine Coolants in to question. We would encourage all users and those considering using WEC to talk to us if they have doubts.

As mentioned previously Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, KTM, Kamaz Master, Volvo-Mack, Optare, Ashok Leyland, Mosler and many other OEM's have all carried out extensive tests on Evans before switching over to the product. These tests reviewed boiling point, corrosion resistance, thermal conductivity, viscosity, vapour pressure, pour point, electrical conductivity and erosion resistance. As the reader might conclude the combined expertise of these companies is massive and I think it would be reasonable to conclude that their findings and subsequent actions say more that we ever could in answering PB's or any others doubts on Evans credibility.

Within the classic car sector Evans have secured the distribution services of 100+ distributors in the UK and 100+ overseas, the majority of which tested Evans in their own vehicles before stocking the product. We hope any readers of this thread will take the time to contact one or more of those dealers to get a second 'classic' opinion.

Regards



SJ Hickson

The original of the PH forum is on No-Rosion website
http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm

Will Evans be taking them to task for their writings?

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Hi all,
I would like to add that I have seen first hand people running into issues on track with waterless coolant in their race B's and following lengthy discussions with people who have run it in their race cars I will be sticking with distilled water in my race GT it's simply not worth the risk.

Kind regards
Tom
T Brooks

Evans UK have prepared a detailed response to the No-Rosion document. I don't know whether that document could or should be posted here. If Peter is interested I could send an email copy for his perusal.

Evans USA will be politely requesting NR to amend their technical errors but ultimately the car owning public will make up their own mind based on majority feedback plus OEM and Fleet acceptance.

I note Tom's comments and appreciate that our technology may not suit everyone's needs, especially when it comes to the Track. During the 2012 season we did work with Simon Tinkler (MGB-GT) and the Neaves brothers (TNR Racing MGZR190), both of whom improved their performance and finishing positions using Evans, as many other classic competitors.

From our point of view it would be very useful to receive positive and negative feedback directly, so that we might have a 'first up' opportunity to help overcome any issues.

Kind regards, Steve Hickson
steve@coolflow.co.uk
SJ Hickson

"appreciate that our technology may not suit everyone's needs, especially when it comes to the Track" ?

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

As a Chemical Engineer familiar with heat transfer fundamentals, I can say that water is a better choice than almost any other fluid for heat transfer. High thermal conductivity, high specific heat and low viscosity. The low bp may also help, because nucleate boiling if it occurs is GOOD and preventing it is bad. I cannot see why any of the majors would endorse straight glycols, except for corrrosion reasons.
Art Pearse

Hi Art

Most of what I can find would suggest that OEM use or recommend a mix based on distilled water. The glycols/corrosion resistance are needed for the high ally content of the engines and rads I reckon. One of my customers thought a few drops of washing up liquid in distilled water to drop the surface tension might be worth trying. We have to use a drop of washing up liquid in our water u-tube manometers to prevent water 'sticking' where it shouldn't.

I only advocate neat water for race use just to let folks know. Anti-freeze may well be needed in cool weather for road use!

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Peter, I wasn't advocating pure water, just explaining the good properties it has, as well as being cheap! So to me it makes sense to use only as much anti freeze as needed for the region.
Art Pearse

I know Art I was agreeing with you. With modern bikes and cars OEMs seem to sell pre-mix coolant at daft prices. Quite a few of the threads allude to where to buy neat glycol concoctions then water down as is cheaper. The OEMs justify the pre-mix cost saying the ratios are vital!!!!!


Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Hi Steve

You very kindly offered to send me Evan's rebuttal of the criticisms levelled by Norosion. I would like to read through this material. My email address is
peter@burgesstuning.free-online.co.uk

Thanks

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Peter/Art,
What are your thoughts about Redline Waterwetter as an additive or is it just expensive dish washing liquid?
http://www.redlineoil.com.au/product-information.asp#waterwetter
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Mike, surface tension does not figure in what is known as convective heat transfer, ie non-boiling. When it comes to boiling, it can affect the bubble size and thus the physical activity at the boiling interface. Boiling heat transfer is usually much greater than flow-convective, unless you get into the dreaded "burnout" region, but you need very high temperature differences for this (water drops on the hotplate phenomenon). So my guess is save your money, there should not be any boiling going on with glycol mix and a pressure cap.
Art Pearse

Thanks for that Art, I was interested to read about the non boiling conditions, some of the water wetter vendors seem to reckon there is localised 'bubbling' ie water vapour/steam around the bores on occasion. Looks like water and a little glycol antifreeze is about right, just what the manufacturers have been doing forever and a day.

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Art, can you email me ?
peter@burgesstuning.free-online.co.uk

Thanks

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Peter,
Thanks for forwarding the response from Evans to Norosion and other information that Evans put together. To me, some of it seemed irrelevant (fuel consumption of a truck), some contradictory – the MD saying that a nucleate vapour bubble will not recondense until the engine metal temperature falls below 95-115C whereas the Chief Engineer says that the bubble cannot condense in an environment that is hotter than the boiling point of water for the pressure of the system-ie. into the rest of the cooling water as it should. It seems to me that some of the thinking assumes that there is no water pump mixing the steam vapour bubbles and the bulk of the cooling water . I could go on but this will get boring-( if not already).
Back to the bottom line. I can see Evans working in a racing car where there is fuel injection and you can dump the heat straight out into the air. Unfortunately for us, our MGs dump heat back into the engine compartment and although the engine will heat up more quickly with Evans, it will get a fair bit hotter than before up to a temperature dependent on the local environmental conditions. You thought you were hot in your MG in summer due to the lack of air conditioning.
123 distributors and most other electronic ignition systems have a temperature limit of 110C-120C-these will not be able to be used.
If you have a tendency to fuel vapour lock, this will be made worse.
I have read all the information that Evans sent to Peter and dozens of research papers on the subject. In my mind the best cooling for MGs will be with water and a surfactant/anticorrosive agent in the summer and a water antifreeze mixture in the winter.
Roy
R.W. CROSIER

Hi Roy, Thanks for the input. I hadnt thought of the heating of the pics or other components of electronic systems. Interesting what a knock on effect heat can cause and how easy it is to forget the boundaries of a system. Art from Canada has much the same views as you. Two specialists giving thought out opinions have been most illuminating. Thanks very much to you both.

Evans would be OK if one redesigned the entire cooling system but I cannot see how this would be justifiable or desirable? I think fluid would have to be pumped faster to take the heat away for rejection to the air via the rad.

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Hi Roy,
Regarding the temperature specs for the electronics, the data sheets I have in front of me state commercial temperature range of 0 to 70C, industrial -40 to +85C. The PIC manual states an another (extended) range of -40 to +120C but I'm not sure what grade of components are used in the 123 dizzys.
Peter what, does the 123 data quote for operating temperature range?
Steve Church

I don't know how this relates exactly but on the 'Mounting instructions' sheet for my standard 123 it has under the 'Technical data'

Operating voltage
4,0 to 15,0 Volts, negative earth only

RPM range
600 to 7000 rpm

Temperature
-30 to 85 degrees Celsius

Coil
stock coil or "High Energy"-coil, primary resistance not below 1 ohm.
Nigel Atkins

Hi Steve

Around 100C but there is a little leeway. Only seen one cooked so far in a TR4 in Spain. We are a little wary of excess heat foir use with a Twin Cam like Roy's

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Dear All,
thank you for the feedback and comments on Waterless Engine Coolants. Before signing off on this thread I would like to reiterate some hard facts; that approx 0.5M engines worldwide have already been converted to Evans and 99.999% of those conversions have been very successful. Included in that total are a significant number of MG's, TR's, Morgans, Minis, Jaguars, etc. etc. from all eras, plus 1000's of classic racing cars and 10,000's of performance cars and bikes.
I am sorry that PB has had the problems he had, but based on 20 years proven use, increasing adoption by Fleet Operators and Honda's extensive due diligence prior to appointing Evans as a Technical Partner, it would be fair and reasonable to say that WEC do bring performance benefits, eradicate corrosion, erosion and cavitation and are often better suited to cooling very high temperature metal surfaces than water.
As with many radical inventions including the electric light bulb, radio and aeroplane (all of which were widely ridiculed prior to global adoption) it will take time for WEC to be accepted by all.
In the meantime I would respectfully request potential adopters or those with technical questions or problems to contact us directly, so that Evans UK might at least have the opportunity to work through any issues before being castigated or defamed on a public forum...(please see it from our point of view too).
Thank you.
SJ Hickson

This thread was discussed between 11/04/2013 and 01/05/2013

MG MGB Technical index

This thread is from the archives. Join the live MG MGB Technical BBS now