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MG MGB Technical - What Have I Got
| Hi All I am new to this forum and to MGB's so I need help to get started on my project. My background is in restoring Motorcycles and building a Kit Car, I have just sold the Kit Car and bought an MGBGT reg LKT 487F 1967 but!!!!!. My first question to you who know is What engine have I,?? some bright spark (not from the ignition) has taken the engine number plate off so I do not know what I have, is it a 3 or 5 bearing ??? Secondly What Distributor have I 25D or 45D.??? To add a bit to the confusion it appears to be in a 1970 to 1974 body (it has the wide tunnel). I am legal, as I have a registration document with a Chassis number and engine number and an MOT, the Chassis number is on the plate on the off side inner wing, but the engine number is not on the engine. Your comments and assistants would be useful. Thanks Graham |
| GJ Barker |
| Graham, hi, welcome sorry I don't know the answers but others will be along that do a lot of classics are nearer to custom/modified/altered than original so what parts and components that were originally on an 'F' reg car may not be what's on or best for your non-original car two excellent source of information are Paul Hunt's site mgb-stuff - http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/hammertext.htm and the 200+ video from John Twist - http://www.youtube.com/user/Universitymotorsltd with a MGB there is lots of information around, reprints of factory manuals, books, DVDs, parts suppliers and web - not all info is accurate even in the best sources and some carry the same mistakes from decades ago the dissy is marked up *I think* so you should be able to tell, for dissy parts (especially newly made rotor arms, CB points and condensers which can be p*ss poorly made new) it's the Distribution Doctor - http://www.distributordoctor.com/ most electric parts are now better but still some are best to keep the existing or by old NOS or working s/h anything that has rubber in it can be rubbish if new that the end of my cheeriness, cheers |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Hi Nigel I hope I am doing things correctly in returning your kind comments. I have been watching John Twist with interest and I am gaining info as I go, and the Paul hunt site is of interest too. I have also been looking at the archives on this site so hope to get more info from that. Graham 
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| GJ Barker |
| Hi,. Good luck with your new project. There is a casting date on the block, located between the distributor and the alternator. There are three numbers stamped in a circle. These show days, month, year. If the date is only a few months out to the car age, then it is likely not the original engine. May be a rebuild; also all b series engines would have the same casting not just mgb engines (Marinas, Sherpas). The plates which were aluminium and usually eaten away in a caustic dip/clean can be replaced. Look at the cylinder head casting (remove rocker cover) to see if it roughly corroborates the age of the engine [something like 12H .....). There are more subtle ways to identify an engine, but try these first. The distributor will have a stamped number that can be researched, a 25d will have a fully curved dome shaped cap; the 45 straight sides all round leading to a dome. Are you certain it is a wide tunnel? How have you identified this? Hope this helps. Iwan |
| Iwan Jones |
| It should have a 3 synch box + tunnel. Should have a 5 bearing engine. Should have a 25D dissy. If the tunnel is wrong then it undoubtably has a 5 bearing and 4 synch box. The dissy is easy to visually check, the 25s have a taller more top-of-an-egg shaped cap. The 45s have a much flatter top-of-a-tube shaped cap. Is the starter inertia or pre-engaged type? Where is the solenoid. Alternator? Should be a generator. What fuse box do you have, 2 or 4 fuse? Should be a 2 fuse. Whats the interior like? You should have non reclining seats (adjusted by slackening a 1/2AF setscrew at the rear rather than the easy chromed handles of later seats) and no headrests. You should also have pull levers to open the doors (like minis have) rather than the later types, as well as a dipper switch on the floor and a stalk that simply flashes and indicates. The dash should be flick switch type. The grille is wrong for a start in the picture, as is the spacing of the sidelamp units. Early cars had a larger gap grille to light...so who knows what mix of stuff you have...or maybe its just a 70s car on a 60s logbook. Why, who knows. You could do worse than to buy the Original MGB book. It can often help identifying year bodges very much! |
| Roadwarrior |
| Hi Graham, important bit - ist that a 'Fortwo' or older City Coupe? as I said lots of classics are mix 'n' match in my personal view, not that many would agree, you've got the best looking grill, with perhaps a black instead of red grille badge, and the paint colour looks more 70s than 60s to me but I don't know for sure, the later overriders with rubber inset would have suited that grille more whether any of this matters depends on how much you worry about other people's need for "originality" having the later engine and g/box would probably be better for actually using the car (most classic owners very rarely use their cars) no headrests or heated rear window(?) so perhaps signs of an earlier car (look at least?) got to go - Big Bang |
| Nigel Atkins |
| The tunnel changed in mid '67, when the gearbox changed from 3 to 4-synchro. If you have the wide tunnel, you should have a 4-synchro. It will aslo be a 5-bearing engine. |
| Dave O'Neill2 |
| Hello Graham Because of the way the first reg numbers were a 68 model come out in august 67. Firstly if your chassis number starts with GHD3 then it is a 3 synchro narrow tunnel car and has been reshelled at some time. If it is a GHD4 chassis number is is a 4 synchro wide tunnel car and the shell is the correct one. Look under the passenger side of the car at the gearbox side inspection plate to tell if you have a 3 synchro gearbox which is square with the bottom 2 corners cut off at 60%. If the plate is oblong then it is a 4 synchro gearbox. NO GT ever had a 3 bearing engine fitted which has a mechanical tacho drive at the rear of the engine on the carb side. Car should be negative earth with an alternator for a 4 synchro car But earlier cars have been converted to this setup as well. don't date the engine by the cylinder head as over the years they have been changed for exchange unleaded heads so could be off any car. Ste |
| s p brown |
| dipping rear view mirror would be from later cars, shown (much earlier than I expected) on this list as GTs built Jan '68 (GHD4 - 139800) http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/MGB/mgbchassis.html |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Graham the 25D dizy has a knurled advance / retard adjustment knob on the side. Not on the 45D. The 3 bearing engine has a mechanical tacko drive and the wide tunnel around 68. |
| D M HILL |
| Echo above. Considered by many to be one of the best years ie best of the early and later features. Yours has a post 1969 colour - flame red? (I once had a '70 GT that colour)and a 1973/74 grille. It's worth getting a pukka BMC/BL workshop manual - it's streets ahead of a Haynes, Autobook etc. Unless you're an originality freak (not that you were saying you were). I should be 5 bearing, 25D. Odds on it'll have an all synchro box and an alternator. I wouldn't worry too much about what bits you've got on the car, other than identifying them for when buying replacement spares. Over 45 years, if the car's been used, a lot of it will have been replaced. I run a well thrashed '72 Roadster that has very few of the correct parts for the year eg '65 engine block, aluminium bonnet, pre-70 grille, '71 gearbox & axle, packaway hood, V8 discs, painted in an early brg etc etc. A combination of what I could get, and what I thought was optimum at the time. Good choice! Peter |
| P A Allen |
| "Because of the way the first reg numbers were a 68 model come out in august 67." Not the registration numbers but the model years. When model years started in 1969 it was normal to start production in the second half of the previous year, sometimes as early as July. Before that it was a process of continual individual modifications apart from the MkII which started in November 67, there was no specific 1968 model. Registration numbers could be applied many months after production, and well into the actual model year. As an example my 73 model roadster was built in September 72 but not registered until June 73. The change from 3-synch to 4-synch was with the Mk2 in November 67. The wide tunnel was primarily for the auto box which became available at the same time. 4-synch engines and gearboxes fit the earlier narrow tunnel perfectly well, apart from the gear lever hole having to be moved back. |
| Paul Hunt |
| Hi All first of all I would like to thank everybody for the response to my tale of wo. Iwan I have looked for the three numbers on the dizzy side and there is not a sausage (none)have not looked on the head. Roadwarrior The starter is not pre-engaged, I have an Alternator with the wiring coming from the harness (so the loom was for an Alternator)I have the seats with the screw in the back,the dip switch is on the stalk not on the floor, the Dash is Rocker Switches, I have replaced the grill with a 67 grill, and it has had new wings at some time. Nigel It's the wifes Fortwo Great little car. I am not wanting originality but want it near, I have a heated rear window does that come later.??? Ste Yes I have got a 3 Syncho box have not got syncho on first (Double De Clutch) if needed. D From OZ and Peter Thanks for more info I am Glad to be on this Forum with all the expertise at hand via the internet. I am enclosing a picture of the tunnel before I found it was a later body and after.?????? Graham 
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| GJ Barker |
| Hi Graham, Not surprised you couldn't see the numbers on the engine block. Usually covered with crud. Every B series engine should have had one. Roughly, it is behind and below the oil filter area. Cyl. Head no. is just to corroborate. Look at Paul Hunt's site there is info there from neil cairns as to how you date a car from its windows. Well at least date the windows! What colour is on your documents. It looks like blaze orange in the pictures. Dizzy could also come from anywhere, Minis again number is difficult to see without taking dizzy off. Does it have a round knurled nut? |
| Iwan Jones |
| Hi Graham and welcome to the mad house :) rocker dash is a late chrome 71-74. Does it also have the face level fresh air vents with tubes through the bulkhead? Mind you, if it's a re-shell it may well have! Blaze is a later colour also but your over riders are early ones (on the front at least!). Are the rear light lenses squared off or rounded (a pic will help), squared off ones from around 70/71. Single speed or two speed hearter? But all these are easily changed so who knows! It looks like a bit of a pick and mix... Best of.... MGmike |
| M McAndrew |
| Paul can you explain your comment not a specific 68 model. A 1968 model MGB was the First car to have wide tunnel,4 synchro gearbox,negative earth car,alternator are just a few of the changes that were ONLY on the 68 model and not a 67 model,that is why the chassis numbers changed and started again. As you say cars are not always sold until months after manufacture which is why you don't go by reg number but model year. Ste |
| s p brown |
| Sorry, Graham, I said flame red when I should have said blaze. Although there's no getting away from that being a later colour and the interior of the car is that colour as well ie the bit that's not normally attacked in a respray. I'm going with it possibly being a later (post 1973 and not free tax?)car with an earlier identity or re-shell as MGMike suggested . Isn't the chassis number also on the passenger floorpan (if that hasn't been replaced)? Anyway, it's still a nice old MG whatever precise year it is. Peter |
| P A Allen |
| It does look like a mixture of old and new. I had a '71 car with toggle switches, so a '67 should certainly have that style of dashboard. It should not have fresh air vents - the radio should be on the dash where the vents appear on later cars. As for the engine number plate, they were only rivetted onto the block and they are often removed when the engine is reconditioned as they get in the way if you are trying to clean up the block-to-head face. The original engine number would have started with 18G...., not 18V.... which was the later engine. However, none of this matters if you like the car. They aren't rare or precious so anything goes with MGBs. Mix and match to your heart's content. My '69 GT has a V8 engine, fuel injection, 5-speed 'box, independent rear suspension, 4-wheel disc brakes, face level vents, cruise control, power steering, etc, etc... 
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| Mike Howlett |
| Graham, my wife a LHD import City Coupe a few weeks before the official RHD were for sale in 2000, she preferred the LHD because of the seat belt position and stepping out on to the pavement, we took it on a tour of N. Yorks, no problem for your car I can hear Johnny Cash and One Piece at a Time :) look on it as your car got some of the later models' improvements |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, LOL I was in the same place.... It's a 67,68,69,70 automobile... must be an age thing! With luck Graham's got the good bits from all of them ;) Best of... MGmike |
| M McAndrew |
| This neatly takes us to the vexed question "What is originality?". Is it a collection of parts that look vaguely like they're from the right year, which often seems to be the case, or is it all/the majority of the bits it left the factory with? My take is that once a car's been "restored" or messed about with (in the case of mine!), then you're just buying it for what it is - which suits me fine. I wouldn't pay a premium for the originality in these terms, but I may pay top rate for the overall condition. The chances of finding a really original car, by my definition, after 33 years +, is now going to be really slim. My first MGB fell into this category, which I bought when it was ten years old in 1979, with a slipping clutch and rusted out sills. Once I'd fixed the clutch and patched the sills, the car was a dream, with everything feeling nice and taut. After a couple of Midgets it felt like a rocket ship. For the last thirty years I've been trying to replicate that first love with my current car, which whilst original had had a much harder life before and since. Peter |
| P A Allen |
| The date on the block is just above the flange the sump bolts to - see the attached, i.e. not directly between the distributor and the alternator which are quite a bit higher. More like under the oil filter housing. And it seems that not all blocks have that date code cast in, I'm aware of a 76 and a 3-bearing that don't have them. You have a right bitsa there. Inertia starters finished in 67, when alternators started. The dip-switch was on the floor until 1970. Rocker switches didn't start until 1972. HRW was available right from the beginning, but optional until the 73 model when it was standard on UK cars. Early ones might be embedded wires, later ones surface tracks. Your tunnel is for a 4-synch, and the straight lever indicates it is a 4-synch box. The tunnel has to be modified to put a 4-synch gearbox into a 3-synch car, that lever is right in the middle of the slot, which also indicates that both are 4-synch. If you have to double-declutch for rolling first it could be synchro has failed on that gear. None of that matters if you intend to use it and not show it in serious competition. "can you explain your comment not a specific 68 model." I'm going by Clausager where the change to 4-synch etc. was classed as the MkII and the chassis number prefixes changed accordingly. That started in November 67, so could be taken to be a 68 model, but Clausager doesn't start referring to model years until the 1969 model. The chassis serial numbers started from 101 back in May 62 and progressed from there, they didn't start again with the MkII or at any other point. What they did do however was jump to the next 'round number' for the start of each model year. 
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| Paul Hunt |
| It looks like a 3 sync because of the stick retention method (doesn't look like the 3 bolts and the sprung plate in the picture that are for the 4 sync remote) and also, the 4 sync should come out towards the rear of the hole. Straight sticks can come from MGAs which will of course fit the 3 sync B box as it's almost identical. |
| Roadwarrior |
| OK lets get more into what car have I. Iwan The oil filter on my engine is hanging down not on top of. The colour on the log book originally was White but is now Red (Orange). MGmike Yes I have air vents instead of a radio Someone mentioned you can get replacement engine number plates, can they tell me where from please, in the log book the engine number is just 87xx3 shouldn't it be longer than that.???? Next thing is the gear lever out of the tunnel,I think I can only upload one picture at a time so will show a pic off the internet of what I think it should be, then in my next comment I will show my tunnel; 
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| GJ Barker |
| And as mine is.??? Could this have been an auto boxed car.??? 
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| GJ Barker |
| Graham, I think at least it can be said that you have an interesting model:) up to you of course but I'm not sure what you'd gain by adding an engine plate with the original engine number from the log book until you can confirm it is the original engine other than perhaps fooling yourself and others even if it is the original engine to the car given the rest of the car it seems likely that the engine may not be entirely original - but it might be, you probably wouldn't know until you stripped it down "matching numbers" can be tenuous even at the best of times but usually just perhaps a nicety rather than any real practicality, an engine that's been rebuilt with new parts a couple of times as Peter's has put is it really original and does it really matter |
| Nigel Atkins |
| It certainly looks like 3-synchro. Not all 3-synchro Bs had a cranked lever. The O/D and non-O/D 'boxes used different levers. One was straight and one was cranked, but I can never remember which is which. |
| Dave O'Neill2 |
| Dave That stick is an MGA one as it has no cranks. one crank is an overdrive one and two cranks for none overdrive. I think that the MGA stick hits the dashboard when installed so that's why it is cranked backwards to clear. Ste |
| s p brown |
| Graham, That (bad) pic from the net is a 4sync cover plate, note how far back the hole is for the lever. Your lever is further forward and is most likely a 3sync box. Also, the silver bit in the drivers foot well looks like a 3sync narrow tunnel cover. The not so good news, from the pic's so far, is the shell is a wide tunnel 4sync shell. These had a few changes between introduction and moving to the rubber bumper shell. Most notably the addition of the face level vent tubes in 71 (K reg cars). I suspect someone has used a tax free registration document for a later car or a later shell with early mechanical bits. Not strictly legal but not unheard of either. I myself have a later shell being restored and it will be fitted with my all "original" 71 engine and drive train (which has be re-bored with new piston, cam, oil pump, propshaft, brakes etc.) LOL The oil filter hanging down suggests an old engine, from the tax free car perhaps. It might also be worth having a peek at the back axle to see if it has an early banjo one? Anyway, it is what it is and you can decide to do it in whatever period you prefer. Best of.... MGmike |
| M McAndrew |
| Thanks Again everbody I appreciate all your comments. MGmike would you believe when I took the carpets up the 3syncro narrow tunnel cover was secured with self taping screws (another Bodge). I can overcome the tunnel problem by making a plate to screw to the tunnel and then screw the gaiter ring to the plate. Yes this will be a special MGBGT but it will be mine. The only way I can look at it. Thanks Again Graham 
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| GJ Barker |
| Hi Graham, Your numbers should be there behind the oil filter somewhere. Can you see any white areas or white under scratched blaze paint; or, is it uniformly blaze with just some primer showing here and there? Look in awkward to spray places. That will tell you a lot. The Gt should not have a Banjo axle on it from new; they were considered too noisy for Gt's. It should be a Salisbury type axle .This may have been replaced (generally done for racing). If you have a banjo axle this alters your requirements - say if you need new rear brake cylinders. Enjoy the car as it is, it looks a nice car. If you want greater - so called - 'originality'[remember Triggers broom in Only Fools and Horses] you can get there in small stages, but if replacing stuff be aware that you may have to check and double check before you order. As people have outlined, get hold of some of the books. Cheers, Iwan |
| Iwan Jones |
| The fact that it has face level vents either mean that the shell is much later than 1967 (say post 1972) or that someone has cut out a piece of the bulkhead to weld in the vent tubes. That's what I did on my 1969 car, but I've never seen anyone else do the same, so my guess is that the shell is post 1972. |
| Mike Howlett |
| Thanks Iwan Your right it has a tube axle. The time when I want to know what car it is is for ordering new carpets (they are different for narrow tunnels than for wide) that sort of thing. I hope to have fun with this car like me and the other half had with the kit car I built 16 years ago and sold to get the "B" picture enclosed. I am sure I will be on this forum again soon Merry Christmas to all Graham 
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| GJ Barker |
| Unlike chassis number engine numbers started from 101 with each change in prefix i.e. 18G, 18GA, 18GB etc. to 18V which then had a three digit number as part of the prefix again each starting from 101. Unless you are saying there is no prefix on the registration document at all, just a five digit number. Assuming the chassis number is correct (!) BMIHT will tell you the original engine and registration numbers as well as other details - http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/store/heritage-certificates-and-archive-services/heritage-certificates.html Some info on replacement tags here http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/bodytext.htm#tags, but what the engine actually is let alone what the original number was is a different matter. If it has an MGA gearbox perhaps it has the matching engine. Does the engine have a cable drive for the tach? I think this is on a kind of shelf right at the back of the carb side of the engine, about half-way up. Not we there may not be a cable in it i.e. it might have an electronic tach. |
| Paul Hunt |
| I've seen quite a few registration documents for Midgets where the engine number is shown as just four digits, completely missing off the prefix. For example, the engine number '12V588FH3171' would be shown as just '3171'. |
| Dave O'Neill2 |
| mine is shown as dash and three digits, e.g -123 |
| Nigel Atkins |
This thread was discussed between 19/12/2013 and 22/12/2013
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