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MG MGF Technical - HELP!!!!

on the way into work today (about 2 miles) the temp went up and then the car cut out and died on me. on closer inspection there was no coolent in the bottle but there was plenty in it the other day? can any one HELP me
David Smith

What happens if you put more coolant into the bottle ?
Does it take a lot ?
Does it leak out of the engine bay ?

In any case, the car now needs a garage.
In the simplest case, the coolant circuit will need bleeding, to remove all air which is now in the circuit.
In the more extreme cases, then it will need some repair work; the fact that the engine cut out is not encouraging.
Don't try to start it or drive it until the problem is resolved.
Steve

First things first.

DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR..... I'm sure you arn't but had to say that.

Most likely cause is a split pipe/clip, cracked radiator or under car coolant pipes (these are known to corrode over time). But, also check the dip stick to see if the oil is oil colour.

Get the AA RAC to tow the car to a garage and have the system checked over a pressure test will show up where the system is leaking.

It will also be worth changing the pressure cap regardless of out come.

I suspect/hope it is not as catastrophic as it seems.

Good luck
Tim

the more water i but in the bottle the more oil i ave so suspect HGF
David Smith

Blimey, If your saying that you have topped up the water and it disapears but the oil level rises then you definately have a HGF, sorry. Get it to a garage ASAP.

Norman
Norman

That sounds VERY strange. I can't think where there would be a conduit large enough to convey water which is not under pressure, passing any seals, into the oil resovoir....... In addition if water had been leaking into the oil during during normal running then I would definately expect mayo in the dipstick.

If you remove the dipstick and replace it a couple of times I have found that you can get a misleading oil level. When removing the dip stick oil is dragged up the sleeve and deposits itself on th dip stick when you replace it. Leave the car for a good long time and check again.

Anybody else have a comment on this.

Be careful about going to a garage and saying 'Oh I think I have a HGF' because they will not investigate, they will merely replace the HG and ask for 400-600 quid.....
tim woolcott

Thanks tim I'll check that in a min there was like a white streak in the oil on the dipstick
David Smith

David,

the white streak sounds like emulsified oil caused by having water in the oil system (HGF). Did the engine just splutter to a stop or did it sound more terminal (seizure). Make sure whoever the garage you use is that they are reliable and confirm the HGF properly before commiting yourself to the repair. As Tim says it's not unknown to end up paying for a HGF when a split pipe could be at fault. Hope this helps, I reckon the rest of the guys have given you good advice here.

Nigel
N Prendergast

Sounds like an HGF to me (the white streak on the dipstick is a big clue). :-(

This is important. How did the car 'die', did it make a lot of noise, or did it just 'switch itself of'?

I am worried about your description of all the water dissapearing and the oil level rising. Not going to say any more at the moment (might be scary and i am working on limited information, so i am likely to be wrong).

SF
Scarlet Fever

The Car just sort of spluttered to a stop with no sound.
When i filled the water up we started it again let it run for a min and switched it off i then checked the water and it had gone.
David Smith

A white streak on the dip stick certainly means there is at least moisture in the system. From my own experience a white streak on the pib stick can be caused by condensation in the engine, although less common in Summer this can still happen. When my own HG went I had mayo all the way up the dipstick urgh...!

Another cause for emusification on the dipstick is failure of the inlet manifold gasket (I had this a couole of years ago). On Easly MPi's this was prone to failure and allowed coolant into one of the cylinders. You could remove the spark plugs shine a torch down and see if the tops of anu of the cylinders are silvery ie clean.

When all said and done you may find that your car has had an HGF but it is well worth covering all bases first before joining this less than popular club.
tim woolcott

So there is no sign of water under the car then.... Oops, sounds as though it probably is an internal thing......

Where in the engine could allow this much liquid in sooo quickly ......?

I would also say don't start the car again. there is always a chance of hydraulic lock which is VERY BAD.....
tim woolcott

>>Where in the engine could allow this much liquid in sooo quickly ......?<<
Air Locks ?
When the temp gauge rises in the F, it can be a sign theres little coolant left. it can't really be re-filled without bleeding.
I have to echo your warning about hydraulic lock - I had this on a company car once.
Steve

Air locks.... Good point.

Another thought....if you really had been loosing vast amounts of coolant into the engine then the oil should be the consistancy of yoghurt by now.... Vanilla that is...
tim woolcott

It's just been towed to our local garage who are going to look at it?

Fingers crossed hey you never know it might just be a leak ( me think's not)
David Smith

Good luck and keep us informed
tim woolcott

Signs are bad, but don't assume HGF yet.

The 'white streak' isn't at all convincing evidence of a HGF. When you get the 'mayo' - you'll know it. It goes everywhere, and is often ejected out of the airfilter through the crankcase breather system into the throttle body...

In the words of the Tango advert: "You know when you've been mayo'd"

The rapid loss of water is a little more concerning. If your gasket has gone, then I suspect that you'll find that the water is escaping from the head above the alternator. You often don't see this hitting the ground, as it is boiled off on the exhaust manifold... Easy to look for though: remove the engine inspection cover, run the engine and look at the front right corner of the engine. A water jet is obvious if present.

Other than that, if your car is over 5 years old, then the most likely area for a water leak is the radiator. Corrosion leads to its failure, and dumps your coolant on the road.

Much cheaper to replace than the head gasket :o)

Fingers crossed David!
Rob Bell

>> It goes everywhere <<

Not on Scarlet, just a little residue on the inside of the expansion tank. Dipstick had a white streak, but this was all.

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>> The Car just sort of spluttered to a stop with no sound. <<

Good news. I was concerned about a shattered liner (i have had this), the car made a loud, horrible 'death rattle' when this happened. Symptoms afterwards were external inspection fine (no coolant in tank though). Filling the tank resulted in the water dissapearing without a trace - it turns out it was pouring past the head gasket and out into the block through the shattered cylinder liner. If your car didn't make a racket when it stopped then it is unlikely to be anything as serious as this. Phew :-)

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>> Easy to look for though: remove the engine inspection cover, run the engine and look at the front right corner of the engine. A water jet is obvious if present <<

Whilst this is true, i wouldn't recommend running the car to find out. If it is a simple HGF then it won't be a problem, but if you are loosing coolant internally then it may be damaging to the engine if you try to turn it over.

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>> if you really had been loosing vast amounts of coolant into the engine then the oil should be the consistancy of yoghurt by now.... Vanilla <<

This is also true, the amount of 'mayo' is dependant on the amount of fluid contamination. In my HGF case there was very little fluid transfer, however, from your description it appears that you are loosing a lot of coolant and this would mean that if it is a HGF, you would get a great deal of contamination and therefore a great deal of mayo. Your description of only a white streak on the dipstick is encouraging, it indicates a small amount of contamination or condensation. I would hazard a guess and say that it is therefore unlikely to be an HGF.

---------

So where does this leave us? Unfortunately with loads of theories and not much certainty.

Keep us informed of the outcomes (fingers are crossed for you).

SF

Scarlet Fever

Hi all,

and thanks for your help when it happened (HGF). The guy at the garge reckons that it's a straightforward HG Failure, leaking into the pots (you saved my bacon with the advice about hydraulic locks). Anyway it's a P reg car with no history of HGF so perhaps it was due. A question my dad raised was that he reckons he has seen reference to a better quality head gasket than the standard item ? Do any of you know if this is true and if so how can I get the "better" replacement item. The bloke at the garage has had a few "F's" in for the same problem but thinks that only the original spec head gasket is available. If there is a better alternate I would rather fit it now to save costs later down the road. Once again thanks to you all for your response to my call for help, I hope I can become as useful to other BBS members.

Dave Smith
David Smith


The new and improved version has steel dowels instead of plastic ones. That is the best way of making sure you get the latest and greatest.

Make sure everything is bled well - including heater matrix.

P.
Paul Nothard

i have justed order a new head gasket set from Mike Satur which is discribed as a heavy duty head gasket with steel dowels
David Smith

Just Spoken to the Garage they have got it all in bits and they said that the head gaskey has gone but the head's not twisted so it dosen't need skimming. So it look like i have got awa with out having done to much damage.
David Smith

Good news David (or rather better news than was first anticipated).

SF
Scarlet Fever

David,

Have you considered having the 5 year service with cambelt change done at the same time - relatively simple job while they're replacing the HG. Done together the 5 year service and HG replacment will be expensive, but much cheaper than having the 2 done seperately.

Of course your F may have already had it's 5 year service, just something to consider if it hasn't.

Hope you're back on the road soon.

Jim


Jim Hosking

I have just phoned the garage up with my car and they have said that she’s all fixed and ready to go they just want to keep it overnight to make sure it all works from cold tomorrow morning?
They’re going to phone me with a price in a few minutes
David Smith

£580.00p
David Smith

That sounds about right David. Shame that you have now got such a big hole in your wallet :o(

Have you entered your HGF into the hall of Shame? http://www.shame.4mg.com/
Rob Bell

This thread was discussed between 27/06/2003 and 07/07/2003

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