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MG MGF Technical - HGF - HELP!!!

Hi there,

I was wondering if you could advise me on the options that an MGF owner has when faced with a head gasket failure?

I have been told that the block has a number of pits and corrosion spots that skimming may or may not resolve. This to me sounds costly and a bit alarming for an engine that has only just past 50K miles. The HGF went as a result of a water pump failure, which again is really scary. It was serviced back in April with an MG dealer, where no problems were reported.

Also the MG garage in question would not normally skim the block when changing a HG, so would have to send it off, even then they cannot guarantee that it will work.

If the skim won't resolve the problem, I wanted to avoid having to buy a new engine, as the one I have SHOULD be good enough, and I am a tad annoyed as you can imagine. Anyway, I want to explore possible avenues so that I can get my motor back on the road where it belongs; not in some garage, enjoying the weather that soft tops were made for...

Would I have to consider getting a new engine? Can I just replace the block they took out? The part they left in the car was fine (sorry, not sure what you would call these parts). Is there a product that could be used to plug these pits? As you can tell I am desperate! And to be honest the place I took it to does not fill me with confidence.

I have ordered a heavy duty gasket from Mike Satur and a water wetter called Cool ice, which I hope would prevent any over heating issues the F has.

Also, this seems to be a pretty common occurance among MGF owners (and Lotus K series owners). Have Rover acknowledged that this is a problem? Would they fix the HGF for free? Mine is a '96, so well outside the waranty. I can't believe my engine is a write off after so little mileage.

I would really appreciate any advice on this.

Regards,

Andy
Wrenchos

Sorry to hear about your problem, I was just thinking that after a spate of HGF earlier in the year things had gone awfully quiet.

It is quite common for the head, once removed to exhibit pitting. This is usually removed by skimming and to be honest I would be sceptical of a garage which does not skim a head after a HGF. I believe that it is not unusual for a new head to have a small amount of pitting but if not in the critical areas, ie around the gasket seals there should not be a problem. Ideally the head should also be hardness tested, there is littel point putting back a head if it has gone soft die to over heating. All these extra tests and skimming might seem to be costing more but it should still come it to the usual ball park figure of 400-500 quid.

My own HG went in March but too the opportunity to go for a gas flowed head, made the HGF a little expensive but since the head was off anyway, why not.....

In terms of engine replacement, that really is not going to be likely, there would have to be a very catastophic failure to warrant that.

When installing the new gasket make sure that they replace the dowels with the new steel items.

Good luck with the HG work, once done it is a lot less likely to occur again.
tim woolcott

Andy - bad news, sorry to hear that. HGF, as you already know, is a problem that affects early MGFs and Elises - although thanks to continual development, the current TF is now practically clear of any form of head gasket problems. Not that this helps you directly - except in terms of what can be done to prevent the problem recurring.

But first - whether you have any form of recourse to MG. Given the age of your car, I'd say that the chances of getting any money from Rover to offset your replacement bill is going to be remote. But discuss this with your dealer, because you never know. If you don't ask, you don't recieve...

Block pitting.

This is not a common problem - and seems to indicate that the cylinder head and block seriously over heated as a consequence of the water pump failure.

Given the costs of skimming the block, confirming that the gasket then sealed or not etc etc - then I think that I'd probably err on purchasing a new - or better still, a good second hand engine. One of the specialist autobreakers would be your best bet - such as the MGF Centre (http://www.mgfcentre.com). Of course, you don't have to replace like with like - you could always fit a more powerful engine from the TF 135 or 160 into your car - although you'd need to budget on replacing your existing MEMS.

Other preventative measures:

You've already specified a Mike Satur head gasket - a sensible move, as it has reinforcement in strategic areas to help prevent repeat failure. Make sure that you also replace the original plastic head locating dowels with the current specification steel items.
I'm not convinced of the benefits of "Water Wetter" products - the chemical make up can react with the antifreeze/rust inhibitor in the engine - and for this reason, I think I'd avoid using it.
Although your headgasket failure can be directly linked to the collapse of your water pump, you might consider installing the latest specification of thermostat (as introduced recently on the Landrover Freelander and MG TF). It's pressure and temperature sensitive, and thus should make HGF a less likely occurance.

There are other measures that can be taken - and some of the theories concerning HGF can be found at http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/HGF.htm

Hope this helps
Rob Bell

Andy, Just to make sure Rob and I are not getting confused are you refering to pitting on the bock (the big lump with the pistons in or the head the bit with the valve in.......! As Rob says if the pitting os on the block then skimming that is a much bigger issue.
tim woolcott

Thanks for the quick response. I can't obviously name the garage, as they might sue me, but I can say that I don't trust them a great deal. They at first asked me if I wanted to go ahead with the gasket, then stated that there were some dodgy pits on the gasket line and around the manifold. When the HG went the engine cut out completely, then some bloke from the AA thought he could restart the engine (with no water or oil in the system), as he thought it was the catalytic converter. This could have seriously messed things up for me, as the engine cut out a further 2 times on the mile or so trip back to my house. Not impressed.

I have seen the pitting first hand, and I have sent some of the pictures off to Mike Satur to have a nose at. But given the quality of them, I don't he will be able to tell too much from them.

Just to reiterate. The bit they removed (not sure head or block, probably block) has the pitting, the bit in the car is fine. Sorry to be so crude on the terms, but that is the only way I can describe them.

Trouble is there were some lovely long holes, not that deep, say 1mm to 1.5, but 1 cm in length. There was a nasty mess near the manifold, which had not breached the tube as such but was right on it. Question is, do I risk the skim and gasket change, given that they won't guarantee this work, and that it might go again at any time, or do I opped for the new engine? Could I just get a new head and be done with it? Or are the head and block an integral partnership?

Also, any idea on the cost of a second hand engine? 1.8vvc?

thanks again, Andy
wrenchos

hmm - the need for a new engine is, as Tim says, dependent upon whether these pits are in the block or on the head. As you say that the pitting is not on the engine left in the car (the block) but on the part removed (the head) - it sounds as though the head itself is scrap rather than the whole engine (and happily this is cheaper than buying a complete new engine!)
You say that the pitting is close to the manifold: out of curiousity, are we talking inlet manifold or exhaust?

Regarding sourcing second hand parts, any of the reputable breakers should be able to help (eg the MGF Centre). A second hand complete VVC engine typically costs 1500 quid for example... a head might cost somewhere in the region of 2-300 quid.

If you have the pix you can email, could you forward a copy to me as well? robert . bell at ucl . ac . uk

Cheers
Rob Bell

Agree, sounds like a scrap head, 1mm -> 1.5mm pitting is quite a lot. I wonder what sort of rise in compression ratio yuou would get by skimming that much off!
Will Munns

I believe that skimming 1mm is possible but any more and the head is junk and as will says the compression ratio changed. I hope it's just the head (the bit with the valves in it) which is pitted.

Now, if the man from the AA tried to start the car you may have some recourse with them, I know that if their people screw up they will offer to fix or make a contribution towards the rectification of the damage caused. Worth complaining I'd say.
tim woolcott

Thanks again everyone - you are restoring my faith in MG.

Rob - So, if it is the head, which I believe it is, then this could be replaced without replacing the block? If this is the case then I will opt for this. £1500 for a VVC plus fitting is going to be pricey and I am looking really at damage limitation/minimal cost.

I think that even with Skimming there would be too many high risk areas, especially where the gasket sits.

I think it is the inlet manifold. there was some dodgy pitting here, almost right over the hole!

I will try to email you the snaps tonight. About 2MB in all, the ones that matter are not all that good, but the block ones are great.

Will - I believe that some of the pitts would require 1.5mm to get rid of them, which means they would have to do the rest of the head to the same degree (I think)

Tim - The garage reckon that the block has some pitting, but nothing like the head. They want £800 for a new head - second hand I think is best, but I don't think they would guarantee the work...shame.

I have drafted a letter to the AA which basically says how appalled I am at the standard of advice and that they should pay for the costs of repair. Fingers crossed on that one.
Wrenchos

>which means they would have to do the rest of the head to the same degree (I think)
most definatly

Try
http://www.Midlandmgf.co.uk
and
http://www.mgfcentre.co.uk
(if the links dont work try .com)
for a low mileage head
Will Munns

I have a number of near new heads at reasonable prices..

The pitting on the block can easily be repaired with Devcon epoxy or similar, its normally around the water sealing area and is a result of electrolytic action. This area only has to contain 14PSI of water and around 150C, the epoxy will only ever be in compression and will be safe, I've repaired about 15 blocks this way with no problems.

Dave
Dave Andrews

Andy,

Just so you know, Dave Andrews is a bit of a guru when it comes to K series engines..... Worth having a chat with him.

Tim
tim woolcott

Nice to hear Dave Andrews words of comfort re the block repairs - could save many of us a packet in the future.

As Tim says Dave Andrews is reckoned to second to none when it comes to K series expertise.

Ted
Ted Newman

You could do a lot worse than sending / taking it to Dave to actually do the repair !

Cambridge to Milton Keynes isn't too far...

See http://members.aol.com/DVAPower/ .

Someone I work with speaks highly of his work (on a Lizzie...)

Brown & Gammons in Baldock are another possibility...

Neil.
Neil

Thanks Andy - 2MB no problem. :o)

From what Dave Andrews says, that block is salvagable (do you want me to post these on-line for others to see?) - which is good news. And I am sure that he's also the man to get a good deal on a new/second hand head :o)

Good luck with the AA...
Rob Bell

Dave - thanks for that. I will email you with further questions (sorry!) By the way, do you do mobile block repairs? My MG is up on the racks as we speak. I would have to have it towed over to MK anyway, so I could use this money to finance a visit. Plus I have already spent £300 - £400 already (they tell me)

I have spoken to a company called Ivor Serle, who were willing to take a look at the head before recommending a course of action. The garage will take it there tomorrow (for £20).

The sell reconditioned heads, valves and springs + VVC control units if you need them, but the guys are Ivor Serle think that I might be able to get away with a repair job - which just leaves the block. Now, I have spent a fair bit at this stage on just getting this far, so to leave the block as it is might be a bad idea. Dave's block repair sounds spot on, but how am I going to get this done? In hindsight I would have done things very differently, and I am hoping there won't be a next time!

just a point to note, the MG Centre want around £350 to £550 for VVC head. Not sure what this included or what condition.

thanks again guys!
Wrenchos

just a quick one for Dave - does the Devcon epoxy fix work for the head too?

thanks.
Wrenchos

>> does the Devcon epoxy fix work for the head too? <<

Nope - if only it were that easy...
Rob Bell

We usually TIG weld damaged /pitted heads then reface, depends on the amount of damage.Worth enquiring if they can do this type of repair.
Good luck.
Mike.
mike

You can epoxy repairn the head because the mode of failure is different, the pitting is around the fire ring which has to withstand sustained temperatures in excess of 350C, this wil eat any epoxy.

TIG welding can offer a solution but K series heads do suffer with porosity, if you hit some of this when repairing then it's difficult to save the head.

Dave
Dave Andrews

Can overhead cams be re-used if the VVC head is skimmed? I have looked in the engine manual but it doesn't mention skimming of heads!
R

Yep, to skim all the cams and gubbings have to be stripped, but they all go back in after.
Will Munns

latest is this: Head sent to Ivor Serle, who want £75 +VAt to strip it. They reckon that they can't tell if it is salvagable without doing this.

decided on the recon head instead, which i have sourced from MG Centre. All tested and ready to go. I was alarmed to discover that the water pump which needs to be replaced is going to cost me £88, and the part is only around £30, so they want an hour's labour for this. Seems excessive seeing as it is in bits to start with. Wonder if they will still charge me for the parts I have supplied to them? Still things are moving now...the end is in sight.

Will - Can you tell me about any MG meets in Cambs? I 've had mine for 2 months or so, so am new to the scene.

thanks
A P Wrench

I jusr replaced a water pump, it took around 10 minutes to take the old one off and fit the new one. It only involves about 6 small bolts.

Sounds like a rip to me..

Dave
Dave Andrews

The latest on the HGF.

Head arrived late Tuesday pm. I rang the garage for a progress update today (Thursday 21st) to find that no one had touched it. They said that the head had not been reconditioned and wanted the mechanic who was working on it to inspect it before fitting. The mechanic will be on holiday until Tuesday next week, though he did not tell me that. I asked them to ring the supplier in the first instance to ensure that the part delivered was exactly what they needed. Now the part has arrived and they are giving me grief about it. If only they had bothered to make that call. Still, I told them that the head had been skimmed and the valves tested, and that I was not expecting a fully recon. head with all the trimmings. Nice of them to tell me! So still not getting anywhere.
A P Wrench

Bloody hell! Major stress.I would give DVA a call.
Mike.
mike

I get the motor back tomorrow morning. On the one hand extremely happy, but on the other, annoyed at the quality of service I have received.

Found out that the head section has not been collected from Ivor Searle, as promised, and I will need this to prove that the head was fried with the AA.

Also, spoke to someone who said you could not just replace the head on a job like this - is he wrong. Again another MG/Rover dealer.

Interestingly enough spoke to another MG main dealer who quoted me £100 less than this MG dealer for the same job. I thought they would be the same.

hopefully I won't have to post another sorry tale like this on the BB. I am looking forward to taking the F out for a nice, long drive. Hopefully also make the trip to Bruge in December...anyone going on that one?

Andy
A P Wrench

Andy, £100 can easily be the difference in hourly labour rates as well the time estimated to do the job; my dealer is £65 +vat per hour; 5 hours @ £65 = £325 + vat; 4 hours @ £55 = £220 + vat; could save upto £100 + vat. It soon adds up.
John Ponting

I noticed oil dripping from around the sump after I had stopped the car. I had been driving for an hour max, and had not really gone above 4000 rpm. It seemed that it was from the sump not, but on closer inspection noticed that it was dripping from a number of areas around the sump. I took it back to the garage today and they said they would clean the area up next week as it was hard for them to get a look at it. I am a bit concerned by this as it did not happen before the HG and head replacement. It is not a great deal of oil, but any oil is a bit worrying. Any ideas?
Andy W

Apart from chaning the oil, they shouldn't have touched the sump at all.
Will Munns

I think that the oil is just running down the engine and falling from the sump. It is not just from one location but from several areas. I placed some cardboard under it the other day and went back this morning to find 5 distinct areas of oil. Again, worried about what this means and what needs to be done to correct it.
A P Wrench

This thread was discussed between 12/08/2003 and 01/09/2003

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