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MG MGF Technical - HGF oh oh

Well, part of the family now. Just home after a short ride ( 2 x 20km) at slow speed (max 70 kph) and I noticed a slight irregular idle speed and a somewhat more "dark" exhaust sound. Switching of and as always checked coolant level: nothing in the tank anymore!!! and higher level in the oil and lots of mayo!!!
But: the B&G alarm had NOT gone off. Shortly before home I filled up at a petrolstation and the alarm gave the two ok bleeps. Even now, when I switch ignition on, the two bleeps come signalling everything ok!!!! But, the coolant tank is empty. Scary, isn't it?

The car is a TF 135 from 2002 and 87000 km.
20.000 km ago (which was in march 2010) I replaced timing belt, tensioner and waterpump.

So now, next thing to do is to order for a new HG, the Landrover version complete with new oilrail and headbolts.

Question to the experts: whatelse should I order: gasket camshaft cover; gasket sump and.......

Huib Bruijstens

I am sorry to hear of your new 'family membership'. Is the float stuck up inside the expansion tank or has it dropped down as the coolant level fell?
I regularly test them by holding the float down with a stick for about 12 seconds to prove the alarm still works. The two beeps tests the Power On Self Test(POST) function and the buzzer only - but not the alarm!
I suffered the opposite problem with my 2006 B&G coolant alarm earlier this year after five years of good service. Suddenly constant false alarms - so I replaced first the tank+float and then the sensor without curing the problem. There was a disappointing complete lack of interest from B&G, maybe you will find more interest from them why yours did not work.
Charless

You will need a 50ml bottle of Anerobic sealant for both the oil rail and the sump to the block joint. Part number GUG 705963GM. And another bottle if disturbing the cam ladder. It's a yellow paste and doesn't readily come out even after warming the bottle first. Silicon sealant or RTV just won't do, you must use this anerobic sealant as it sets in the absence of air (i.e. inside a metal to metal joint) and, unlike silicone, excess outside the joint is dissolved by engine oil. Apply it as a very thin film. This sealant doesn't usually come with a head gasket kit and it's not cheap at around £10 a bottle. The camshaft cover gasket is usually supplied with a full head gasket kit as are 16 x valve stem oil seals and various other gaskets you will require (inlet manifold, exhaust, water outlet etc). If you intend to regrind the valves or replace the stem seals then a decent OHV spring compressor will be required. The best type are adjustable at both ends.

Jeff
J Lennon

Charless, thanks for explaining the alarm beeps. Good to realize that this testbeep only indicates the system partly and given my case now, your float down test seems a must! I reported to B&G on sunday but so far no response.
Jeff, this really is the kind of tips I am hoping for. Typical the things one forgets. Thank you.
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

You will need a locking tool between the cam gears - plenty on Ebay. Draper do one - they are only a few pounds.

Also whilst you are in there, the original camgear retaining bolts are supposed to be "at limit" on the recommended torque. They were subject of a factory recall due to danger of breaking up. Apparantly the factory used bolts below the design spec. Mike Satur's website sells a cambolt kit - the bolts are claimed to exceed the original design spec. His kit comes with a bottle of loctite - there will be lots left in the bottle to use elsewhere.

You ought to lock the flywheel to undo the bottom pulley and to prevent the cylinder liners from moving when the head is off. You can gain access to the flywheel ring gear once the starter motor is out. Locking tools vary, you need one that can bolt in where the starter motor was, yet reach the ring gear inside. Be aware that some of the tools will only work if the gearbox is not present.

You "might" get away without locking the flywheel if you use an electric or air powered impact gun to "chatter" the bottom pulley bolt free (remove the pulley and replace the bolt to turn the engine over to safe position which is when the dot on the crankshaft gear lines up with a correspnding dot on the block) BUT once the head is off you must not move the crankshaft one tiny bit, else the liners will move and their bottom seal in the block will be destroyed.

Tim Guy did an excellent write up about head gasket changing.
See http://www.timguydesign.f2s.com/pics/MG-HG-Replacement.pdf


Jeff
J Lennon

Last year I have been downthere to replace the cambelt plus waterpump etc, so, some partly experience available as well as the camlock tool. The new challenge now is not only downthere but also into it. Coming weekend it will happen.
Now I am trying to gain all parts. To my surprise some unclearities seem to exist about:
- what are the partnumbers of the Landrover multilayer headgasket SET for a 2002 MG TF 135 (NON-VVC)
- same for oilladder or oilrail
- in this "TIM"guide he writes about sealant to be used between oilrail and block. Is there really a seal necessary there? Some around here say they would never use a seal there because flat surfaces and all headbolts keep it tight against the relatively low oilpressure.
- does the Landrover multilayer HG require another oilrail or is this an option??
greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

There are plenty of places to buy a genuine gasket kit from - a L/Rover Xpart dealer for example. A complete set including MLS+headsaver, head bolts and the oilrail can be had from gasketsforclassics (gasketsforclassics@tiscali.co.uk) where I got mine from. Very helpful with my questions, quick delivery and my engine is oil and water tight with their products!

You don't have to change the oil rail for the L/R type, even when using their head gasket. The L/R rail is fatter, the oil ways larger and it is supposed to be stiffer than original. Your choice! Clearly the head bolts screw into it, perhaps the bolts get an extra thread of metal to screw into, but I cannot see how it improves the stiffness of the bolts at the head end.

If you do remove the oil rail, you must first take out the sump's oil pickup pipe. It has an "O" ring that you should renew when refitting - LR part number CDU2206L. To ensure no oil pressure is lost you should use Anerobic sealant GUG705963GM when refitting the oil rail - smear it thinly around the five oil way holes that meet the block. It's the same sealant you will use when refitting the sump.

You might decide to lock the cylinder liners in place with some tubes and washers, fastened down with some of the old head bolts. Clearly these will be disconnected whilst the oil rail is being changed; be very sure the engine does not turn during that time.

By the way, liners must protrude by a very small amount over the block face. Ideally 4 thousands of one inch. I have read you can get away with just 2 thousands of one inch. If liners are flat or sunk into the block, you have a big problem. The L/R MLS gaskets work best if all four liners protrude by the same amount. You should seek advice about alternative gasket types if you have uneven liner protrusion.

Jeff
J Lennon

Huib,

I had the same issue. I noticed the header tank wasn't quite as see thru and found the small float was prone to sticking.

So last year I took the tank out and found that had the water gone down the alarm wouldn't have gone off.

I thoroughly cleaned the tank and float and put it back.

Didn't help HGF though, about 9 months later my wife found that when she got in the car after being at a friends the alarm went off. She checked the water before setting off and it had gone down. She topped it up and popped home. All seemed fine and no more issues but come the regular service, the garage said the gasket had gone.
b buick

Head is off now and laying on the bench. Gasket red rubber was partly loose at one point around a headbolthole.
Waiting for the spares to comke in.
The float in the B&G tank is not sticky, it moves freely. When I took it out, the float was on the bottom and as reported: NO ALARM!! Even with the ignition on for some time. So far no response from B&G. Will try to wake them up.
Huib
Huib Bruijstens

May be useful to identify the failure yourself.

I don't know the B&G design. Can the sensor get disconnected from the circuit easy ?

The sensor includes a simple reed contact. It gets activated by a magnet in the *float* foam ring.
You could try to short circuit the wires to the sensor and see what it does (consider a delay of I think 15 seconds)
On the other side you can check the sensor easy with a resistance meter.

btw, it's more useful to call the B&G guys instead of waiting for email response.
Dieter

It took some weekends to master the job but the car is back on the road now with a Landrover MLS gasket plus oilrail and also all new things down inside that will keep me free of opening this treasure box too soon again.

I found a lot of useful information on and via this BBS board so thank you all for this.
Especially the instructions "MGF VVC Head Gasket Replacement" written by Tim Guy (thanks Jeff for mentioning this link), proved to be a very useful guideline to perform the task. Thanks a lot Tim!!

I performed the tests that Dieter suggested.
- when the container was out, I measured resistance between the two connectors in the plug. Foam ring up and down made no difference, the cirquit was not closed in either case.
- I shortcirquited the connector on the system side and with the ignition on, after about ten seconds the alarm started bleeping and kept doing so. The alarm LED light kept burning.
So, I think that the system is ok but that the switch in the container fails.

In the meantime I kept sending e-mails to Brown&Gammons ( to sales@ukmgparts.com and also two people inthere I had been e-mailing with before; finally to feedback@ukmgparts.com but no response at all from them. Finally i mailed to malcolm@ukmgparts.com and Malcolm Gammons responded inmediatly and is offering help to find a solution. First step now is to replace the switch in the container.

Malcolm mentioned that they have never seen this happen with the kit.

For your own safety and for checking such facts, it would be great if everyone with a B&G low coolant alarm would perform the test as suggested by Charless in this thread. Let me start a new thread for such inquiry.

Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Good work Huib - incredibly rewarding to repair your car like this isn't it? :o)
Rob Bell

It'd scare the willies out of me rob.
Leigh Reid

Well done Huib. It's a great feeling to drive the car after any repair or improvement you have done by yourself.

Two questions:-

1) Did you have any difficulties with the job?
2) What do you think caused HGF?

Good luck with fixing the B&G alarm.

Jeff
J Lennon

Jeff,
1) not really. Although some bolts and nuts, pffff. I love that british sense of humor when Tim Guy talks about two two bolts holding the fuelline under the inletmanifold. He calls that a bit fidling. In my country people would use much stronger words to describe their desperite feelings whilst trying to get those in.
2) the rubber around one of the headbolt holes in the gasket (underside) had come partly loose and had moved towards that hole. Once the oilpan and oilrail were out, I could see that the hole around the headbolts has an open connection to the oilpan area, so, the coolant could shower onto the oil. Inspite of the failing B&G alarm, I have been extremely lucky. I had made a short and slow drive, the coolant and oiltemps were below level. And I could see this in the head: could simply wipe the oil/mayo off and out. It was not burned onto the walls. A sign that the head has not been overheated. I guess that it has happened in the last few hundred meters of my drive, close to home. Car was scheduled the next day to make a long highway drive. Would haven been different upthere!! Now, I could experience the dutch railway system. Not bad at all these days I must say.
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Huib,
well done
.o)
Part No: PCJ000040 is the sensor in the B&G kit and original X-Part.
Just in case you can't wait for B&G assistance.
It's pushed into the coolant expansion tank and held in place with some strong lugs.
http://www.mgfcar.de/expansion_tank/level_sensor.htm
Dieter

This thread was discussed between 14/08/2011 and 06/09/2011

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