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MG MGF Technical - MG F: Spring conversion kit
| A question mates: Is it worth to replace the hydragas system for a spring conversion kit? I truly love my F -1.8mpi- made in 1997 and running from 2000. She is a rare car around here as I own the only one in the west of the country and, I believe, only thirteen Fs were imported. She only has 44k on the clock and goes very well. HGF happened four years ago and was repaired -Porsche garage!-. Since then everything OK, except that I have had to replace two hydra units -one back and another front- and have ONLY one rear spare. I would invest on a conversion kit, which are quite expensive and -including mail rates and taxes- will be more expensive for me. But the real thing is: Are they worth? The car will handle the same? Will she corner and brake well. I read a lot about but have been unable to find a fair first hand review of the kit conversion driving experience. Many thanks. Mike JM Vega-P MD |
| JM Vega-P. |
| hopefully someone from oz who was going to get a kit fitted can post. In what way did your hydragas units fail? |
| Leigh Reid |
| Both of them begun slowly leaking green hydra fluid and the car settled at that side. |
| JM Vega-P. |
| a proper failure then. I get the impression there are 2 kits on the market (like buses - nothing for ages then 2 come along at once). I'd also be interested to hear from anyone that's tried them, cost might be prohibitve now considering second hand mgfs are getting cheap. |
| Leigh Reid |
| From a patient Aussie Down Under! The last call I had from Suplex was that the replacements were due to be dispatched to UK dealers on 22nd August. Needless to say I've heard nothing yet but will post something here as soon as I do. When the replacements are finally fitted I will give a full road test and report. |
| Pete Cornell |
| Two kits Leigh? I am only aware of the Suplex one? Not sure that I would immediately rush out and buy one of these kits unless forced into it - it requires replacement of all four suspension units, and replacement of the dampers. It isn't very difficult work, just a lot of it. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, remanufacture of Moulton Hydragas units is unlikely to happen. Unless someone knows what Dunlop did with the manufacturing processes? BTW, Alex Moulton reckons that these units can be repaired by squeezing the casting ring around the perimeter of the lower sphere, as he believes that rupture of the rubber membrane is extremely unlikely... |
| Rob Bell |
| Yes, there are 2 editions out. The Suplex kit and a special made Australian Design :) >as he believes that rupture of the rubber membrane is extremely unlikely... Can't confirm, Rob. At last me had two of failed rubber membranes. Do you remember ? One was worn, another was pourous just from new ? http://www.mgfcar.de/cut_unit/dk_cut19_1957.jpg http://www.mgfcar.de/cut_unit/index.htm Finally I had no more problems since now 145000 km. *knocking ....* |
| Dieter |
| Oh yes, of course, I'd forgotten about the Australian kit - or rather had heard of it, but wasn't aware that it had been productionised yet? I remember your experiences Dieter. I think the early failure was almost certainly a manufacturing fault, but I am interested in the first with the membrane failure. I am hopefully going to get my failed sphere back to see whether Dr Moulton is right about recovering the hydragas unit. If crimping can save some of these units, then that is certainly worth knowing! Would be incredibly useful if others with failed spheres can feed back their experiences and tell us how these units came to fail :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Dieter may well remember trying to help us out at the MGCC International Event in Germany when we had a rear unit fail. This failed with a bang and the rupture of the membrane. Still going strong on the new replacements fitted after being trucked back to the uk. One thing that surprises me is that people seem to be missing an oppurtunity here, the front units do not usually fail and are still available new. These could be setup as individual spring units and just the rears replaced by spring damper units which should approximately half the cost of such a converion. You loose the linking from front to back anyway when you go to spring damger units. |
| David Karle |
| Is there no way to adapt fronts for use in the rear? |
| Leigh Reid |
| Front and rear units are different - if you hold them both together it becomes quite obvious: the front lower 'sphere' has a different shape and a smaller volume. This impacts upon the spring rate of the unit. Given the front units carry 45% of the weight compared to the rear (55%), then there are going to be differences. In the same way you wouldn't swap conventional springs front to rear, you shouldn't do this for hydragas. If the membrane goes with a bang, then clearly repair is not an option. But a slow leak - which I get a feeling is quite a common mode of failure - might be repairable if Alex Moulton is right about the membrane pulling away from the side of the canister... |
| Rob Bell |
| I've seen both kits and I have to say the Suplex one is far superior to the Aus made conversion... After saying that I believe neither are available at the moment, The Aus one sold out his initial batch to frustrated F owners sick of waiting for the Suplex kit. My advice is to hang on IF you can for Suplex to get over this glitch and get their product on the market. In answer to your initial question Mike, don't change yours until it finaly gives up. The Suplex conversion has undergone 1000's of hours of testing and development to ensure exacting ride and handling charictaristics of the F are the retained. I'm not saying the Australian one is bad but Suplex is a BIG O/E suspension provider with massive R&D facilities, the Australian one is made by a small firm that that has seen a 'hole' in the market. Ask... can they both really give the same results...? Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| Any pictures/ details/ website for the Australian kit Mark? |
| Rob Bell |
| Hmm - found it: http://www.rv8mg.com.au/gallery/SPARE%2BPARTS/mgf-spring-conversion-kit/45110?view=jumbo&order=name |
| Rob Bell |
| Mark If Suplex spent so many hrs in R and D in their massive facility Why have they had to recall and delay product delivery ? What makes their product Far Superior ? Maybe the fact that it is over complex ,made overseas, uses non adjustable shocks? You are correct that the Aus kit is not available at the moment ,that is because we have DELIVERED 10 kits to frustrated Aussie owners of MGF's this week ,next deliveries (orders taken) will be delivered in 4 weeks. As for seeing a Hole in the market,we actually started on this kit 3 years ago but unlike others kept our mouths shut until we were ready to DELIVER. Our kit was developed with the input from one of Australias premier competition spring designers . MCA Suspension (www.mcasuspension.com)owned by ex Australian Rally champion Murray Coote was responsible for the spring design,you don't need a big factory just good people! Small firms are flexile and able to get things done with only a history in the MG business of over 30 yrs. Kit made using Australian Aluminium ,steel and local skilled craftsmen is your guarantee of satisfaction Answer; No they can't give the same results, one of them got it right Stuart Ratcliff Small business owner |
| SJ Ratcliff |
| I've got one of the Australian Kit on my MG-F and I have got to say that I am completely wrapped in it having just returned from a 2000km road trip through the Aus bush where it performed brilliantly. Like many others I placed an order for the Surplex kit early this year (Feb) and got nothing but delays, excuses and frankly lies as to what was happening with the delivery of these things. When the Australian kit was released I canceled my order for the Surplex kit because:- 1) My F had been off the road since February. 2) No credible information as to the REAL delivery date was available. As I've since found out I'd STILL be waiting. 3) As an Australian designed and built kit I was sure that it would be more than up to the task. As a long time MG owner of a number of MG models I have had the sad experience of putting my trust in so called "experts" abroad only to be severely disappointed in the lack of performance of these parts. What works in Europe does not necessarily work as well (or at all) in Aus, NZ, RSA etc.... I would council Mr Baldry to do more research before writing off the Aus kits. Murray Arundell Brisbane Australia |
| M.G. Arundell |
| Adrian, Melbourne Australia I ordered one of Stuart's kits after I had to send an alternative kit from abroad back to the supplier. I am not prepared to comment any further on this subject as the supplier was good enough to refund my money. Tips: I completed the MGF Spring Conversion kit installation. Aside from a couple of tricky bolt positions on the clamp area (upper top left) the installation was straight forward. I have taken the car for a spin and am quite impressed with the ride quality, most improved on the failing Hydragas I had in place. After discussions with Stuart I did not cut down the knuckle pins as per instructions as they are able to be removed. Pre-fitting the pins into the adjuster plate prior to installation is a better alternative. As I did not retain the knuckle pin washers I added a few mm's to the suggested gaps on the adjustment plates. This got me around 10mm lower than specified height. I found that a full turn of the adjuster (360 deg) gave me around 7mm lift. I am still a little lower than spec however I will drive the car for a week prior to fine tuning the height. Once I get a feel for the handling I will adjust the GAZ shockers to suit my preferences. I have only done 150kms since installation, however the height has not moved and is very stable. I take my hat off to Stuart on the kit it is a great alternative to Hydragas and will help keep MGF's on the road for many years to come. For us Aussies local support is paramount and Stuart was very helpfull. Adrian 
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| A Van Drunen |
| Woooow.... It appears I have spoken out of turn...! I now have a kit of Stuart's fitted to an MGF and my initial concerns of the open spring construction (as opposed to the Suplex sealed unit) certainly makes for ease of instalation and probably suits the dry and salt free Australian environment well. Adjustment is easy and when there are a few miles on the kit, I hope to be able to give as glowing report as Murray has. My apologies to Stuart Ratcliff for any implications that my previous post may have given. Stuarts kit is available from: RV8 Services Australia P/L 02 9637 6204 Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| Looks like Aussie's are leading the way here, love to see more posts from others that have carried out the conversion. Adrian |
| A Van Drunen |
| the big question from the uk is therefore when will it be available here? |
| Leigh Reid |
| I have to agree with Murray's comments above. I also placed an order and paid a deposit last February and since then have had nothing but missed deadlines, excuses, unanswered emails and deafening silences on delivery dates. The last date I was given was 22 August and, hello, it's 18th September and yet again no update. Frustrating to say the least, but I'm probably stuck with Suplex now as I will drop a bundle if I cancel the order and switch to Stuart's kit. Next time I'll shop locally! |
| Pete Cornell |
| Leigh The answer to your question is that it will not be available to the UK market at this point. With the strength of the Australian dollar compared to that of the ailing pound it would be impossible to supply to your market. As our product is made locally our production costs are higher than comparable products made in low cost economies. Freight costs and your import duties would only add to the problem. The spring kits that are marketed in the UK are good value in your market but our market cannot support the numbers required to go off shore for production, that is why we have stayed local. We need to support our local trades people or we run the risk of being the worlds biggest quarry! For the 1st time in memory I don't have to multiply UK pound prices by 3 when I buy MG parts ! We are quite happy to send kits to the UK for A$1600 + freight and duties. Thank you to the locals who have purchased our kit and do not hesitate to contact me for information or product help. Stuart Ratcliff RV8 Cars Australia P/L |
| SJ Ratcliff |
| OK... Here's my feedback on the RV8 Cars Australia kit... It'll take you a day to fit and set up all the units, make sure that you follow the instructions and it's straight forward. Just a hint.. Check the shock absorber locating washers fit properly, we had a squeeking issue which turned out to be this. Ride height works well with Stuart's initial set up specs. Check again after some miles... All in all... It's good... :-) Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| 1600AUD is around 1050UKP - so within a similar price bracket to the Suplex units when they become available. I am not sure whether there is a real advantage in completely enclosing the spring in a canister - after all, most springs on the majority of cars are fully exposed to the elements... |
| Rob Bell |
| rob, remember you've got to add shipping and her majesty's 20 percent cut to those figures (if not more - I assume import duty is the same as vat). |
| Leigh Reid |
| Great stuff Stuart and congratulations on developing a viable solution to the MGF hydragas unit supply problem. I have an MGF Trophy 160 and blew the right rear hydragas unit a couple of years ago. I had a new one fitted but, as we know, it won't last forever. Can you please advise if your solution is compatible with the Trophy's lower and stiffer suspension set-up. Thanks, Mark PS - I find the Trophy's suspension bone jarring at times in Australian conditions so it would be great if the new spring/damper solution gave a better ride without compromising handling too much. |
| Mark Hughes |
| Hi all, Good news,so finally "the small spring" system was made available as a substitute for the hydragas... Wasnīt there someone a long time ago mentioning this approach ? The possibillity of using small springs like the rear ones on SAAB 900 or eqvivalent ? Canīt remember who, must have a look in the archive ;O) PS. Real autum +rain here in Sweden, The Green Frog on stands as from yesterday. |
| Carl Blom |
| Hi Carl, great to see you are still on here :) >Canīt remember who, must have a look in the archive ;O) LOL, I recall ... was *someone* from Sweden. I'm still waiting for a user report for the Suplex kit. Anyone out there who got them in the meantime ? Not that I want it. Just curious ! Regards Dieter |
| Dieter |
| Adrian, I have read your email to Stuart about fitting your kit and would like to make contact as I have received mine from Stuart and am about to install them. I'd appreciate your advice on a couple of aspects if you see this post. |
| Pete Cornell |
| Having just completed the installation of Stuart's kit I have to say the result is terrific. After fitting and wheel alignments we took off for a 280km round trip through the McPherson Ranges on the Queensland - New South Wales border. The trip took us from sea level to about 700 meters through some awesome mountain driving country. The handling and performance were everything I had hoped of the conversion, particularly as the trip included long stretches of sealed but corrugated and pot-holed road which used to shake the hell out of the car and crew. I have the front and rear both set at 350mm and noticed the steering is a little lighter than before the conversion, so I'm not sure if that's to do with the ride height, but in any event the car is a joy to handle. Most of our driving in the F is through this border ranges country and it's great to now have a car which handles it so well - congratulations on a great solution to the Hydragas problem. |
| Pete Cornell |
| Hi Pete, >set at 350mm and noticed the steering is a little lighter than before the conversion, ..... Did you have a track alignment after setting it to 350mm ? If not then this would explain the different ride. The front Toe angle is spread to Toe out when you lower the front ride height. The rear Toe angle keeps straight along height changes. However, spot on the tyre wear at the inner edges of the front wheels and immmidiately let the tracking get corrected. HTH Dieter |
| Dieter |
| Hi Dieter, Yes, the front and rear track was aligned after the installation and a short test run of about 30km to settle the springs. However, after I had made the above post I rechecked the ride height and found that the front had dropped about 10mm on each side after the 280km trip, probably due to the new suspension parts settling in. This may account for the lightness in the steering so I will have the alignments carried out again now I have reset the height to 350mm. |
| Pete Cornell |
| Pete, no need to do the alignment again in my opinion. You said it was aligned just after installation of the springs.... at 350mmm height. Then the height dropped by 10mm and you reset the height back to 350. So in which stage was the steering to light ? At 340mm or at 350mm ? |
| Dieter |
| Dieter, Thanks, what you suggest makes sense. The light steering seemed to develop during the 280km trip I did through the mountains and that's when the ride height dropped to 340mm. I did another 150km over similar country yesterday after resetting to 350mm and the steering is much better. Also, the ride height didn't change so the new springs seem to have settled. I'm surprised that such a small change in ride height would affect the steering so much, but I'm not very experienced in front end geometry. Do the shocks have any influence on the steering? The kit includes Gaz adjustable shocks and I set these to 10 clicks clockwise as recommended by Stuart Ratcliff. If I were to adjust these would it alter the tracking? |
| Pete Cornell |
This thread was discussed between 22/08/2011 and 19/11/2011
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