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MG MGF Technical - MGF Head Gasket Failure Update

Hi,

Have not been on the BBS for a while but was wondering what is the latest on MGF HGF with recent reports on BBC Watchdog. I thought that replacing the plastic cylinder head dowels with metal ones was supposed to solve this problem. My head gasket failed on my 1998 VVC after only 12,000 miles and was repaired at low cost by Rover (£200 stg, I had to pay half)using the metal dowels. Is the problem as bad as before.
Paul Robertson

whereabouts in Co.Derry??
tim

My MGF (Y/2001) 22k miles was diagnosed as hgf yesterday.
You say “I thought that replacing the plastic cylinder head dowels with metal ones was supposed to solve this problem”, well, according to the garage, my car already has metal dowels!!
At least it is covered by the warranty.
Alan

For Tim,

Limavady, just a half bricks throw from Coleraine although I was from Belfast originally. No political significance in calling it Derry rather than the full title, just shorter and I am lazy and don't really give a dam anyway. Do you have an F or TF yourself and is it problem free?

I am sorry that the metal dowels have not solved the problem, I may just keep saving for the inevitable repairs although I average about 2000 miles a year so may not need to do it for a while.
Paul Robertson

Alan,

Please surf to the Hall Of Shame:

>> http://www.shame.4mg.com <<

And fill in your details - This is the ONLY freely available data on the HGF debate and is 100% reliant on people adding thier details.

The data is used for statistical analysis only, it is free and you will not get any spam etc by filling it in.

Thanks in advance.

SF
Scarlet Fever

Don’t know if it is my firewall, but this is the message I get when I use the “add to the data base” link!
Data Loading, please wait one moment


I also got the e-mail returned as undeliverable using “please e-mail MikeB directly”!

Got my MGF back this afternoon.
:-)
Alan

Yup, found the same a couple of days ago and currently. Obviously not a firewall problem.
I droped Mike an Email to having a look.
Let's see whether he can fix ist soon.
Dieter K.

> Limavady, just a half bricks throw from Coleraine

It's a small world! My dad's from Dungiven and all my family are there!
Bob Millar

Just been speaking with a colleague of mine who drives a 2000W Land Rover Freelander. He told me that his car is booked in on Friday foe a head gasket replacement, as he has been loosing a little water and had noticed the 'mayo' in the filler cap. He had not seen the Watchdog report, so I told him about the recent fuss.

He then went to the Watchdog web-site which gave a contact number at Land Rover. He phoned them and they agreed their liability, they have agreed to cover all parts and 50% of the labour cost. His car has done 80k miles, if it had been under 60k they would have met the entire cost.

The girl at Land Rover then took all the details and phoned the dealer straight away to make the necessary arrangement. That's what you call Customer Service! That is how MG-R should be re-acting.

Needless to say he is one happy bunny, and I will get a free lunch out of it from him.

Pete

Pete Fincher

The head gasket went on my 2000 MGF SE on the day the watchdog program went out! The local dealership told me it would take 2 weeks to sort!! amazingly it was finished in 2 days & under w/tee...im just hoping it doesn't happen again?! (its only done 29500 miles!)
Matt

Change the coolant regularly and it wont happen again.
Steve Tyler

Steve, The problem with changing the coolant regularly is that if it is done by a muppet there is a chance of getting an airlock in the system, the more frequently the coolant is change the higher the probability that a muppet have been involved.

The Orange OAT coolant is good for 3 years protection and the Unipart 3-plus is good for 2 years (I think).

Coolant need only be changed at the stated intervals, Coolant itself will not cause HGF it is the lack of cooling which does that so check the coolant resevoir regularly and always keep an eye on the temperature gauges, it's why they are there.

Tim
tim woolcott

Tim, it does'nt matter what anyone tells you, the anti-freeze is good for 3 years but the anti-corrosion part is only good for about 18 months (yes even the OAT coolant).
As a qualified Rover Technician I never have much of a problem draining and re-filling the system especially if it's done by vac fill.
Secondly why would you take your car to a muppet to have work carried out !!?? This is where the problems start, I bet that most people who have had HGF have had their car serviced by monkey mechanics who have no decent qualifications to work on cars apart from changing exhausts and brake pads, why would you go back for poor service time and time again!?
Lack of cooling can cause the head to warp and in turn cause the head gasket to fail.
Steve Tyler

Steve,

I think you will find that many Head Gaskets are failing while the car are still in the care of MGR dealers. Was certainly the case with my first one and when the second failed, it had only just come out of MGR 'care'.

Conclusion, it is Lotus, Land Rover and MGR dealers who all employ " monkey mechanics who have no decent qualifications to work on cars "

Or is it - as you suggest - a manufacturers problem, since there is nothing in the service sechedules to sugegest that coolant be changed at 18 months - if that is the case then MGR truly are liable.

"why would you go back for poor service time and time again" - beacuse now cars have the dubious benefit of a 3 year warranty, owners have no choice but to stay with main dealers for that period :-)

I would rather have an new MGR car with a 12 month warranty and a £500 discount so that I can take it to someone who knows what they are doing when the first service becomes due.

I wonder who is financing Land Rovers policy on HGF - Ford or Powertrain?????? Maybe the answer is indicative of the difference in attitude.

Paul
P9 VLS
Paul

Steve,
As a qualified Rover Technician you should know better then to make misguided and inaccurate statements such as "Change the coolant regularly and it wont happen again"

Also, do you think any owner here would knowingly :-
"why would you take your car to a muppet to have work carried out !!?? "
Unfortunately, most of the "muppets" we owners have had the misery to come across have been qualified Rover Technicians!

If you know the correct procedure to bleed an F, then thank the Lord for that, there is one out there in Main Dealer land.
Paul Lane

I no-longer work for a dealer, I now work for an independent garage and still service my ZT to Rover schedules but only last week took it to my local MGR dealer to have a couple of warranty jobs done. No worries for invalidating the warranty as long as schedules have been followed and the book stamped to prove.
Working in dealerships i've seen it happen, technicians are on bonus and need to get as much work done as poss, this therefore means that some things get overlooked even at independent garages, this will never change.
The Vac-bleed is a handy piece of kit by Snap-on/Blue-point. Works a treat on all engines and takes no time to use.
Steve Tyler

Steve,
you are bang on there ref bonus'.

When my Dealership mucked up the bleeding of my F following the first scheduled coolant change it was due to the following:-
97 (P) VVC, 20k miles - 3 year extended warranty (exp Aug 2000).

Sep 2000. Car in first thing Friday morning. Told the service staff I would be in at 5pm to collect it.
When I came in at 4:45 they were still "working on it"
I checked the reservoir before driving off and it was well below the seam. The service Manager had to top it up himself as all the "lads" had gone home.
I drove off and within 1 mile the temp gauge rose rapidly towards the red. I immediately stopped and called them. They came out and towed it back to the Dealership. I was given a demonstrator to go home with.

They had left the car all day, knoweing I wasn't coming in until the end of the day, then rushed the service to get it finished (job and away!).

I made the service manager sign a document that stated if I had HGF within 1000 miles/3 months, they they would be liable for the full cost. I used Hall Of Shame list as documentary evidence of the "weakness and suceptability of the F to HGF"

When I picked the car up on the monday afternoon, after driving 5 miles, I could smell hot coolant. I stopped and inspected the reservoir. The cap was leaking some excess fluid. I called them and they sent out a technician with a new cap to meet me.

All was well thereafter.

I was demonstrating the car to a buyer in March 2002 when I heard a screetching from the alternator. It had never done this before, so pulled over to have a look - to be overtaken by a cloud of steam (temp gauge normal - res. checked before leaving). The Head Gasket had gone.
Had the poor bleeding of Aug 2000 somehow "weakened" the gasket or caused minor warping to the head - who knows, but I doubt it.

The Head was reskimmed due to out of tollerance warping, and I had the belts done as they would have been due in 5 months time.

I contacted MG Assistance to request goodwill following my poor experience at the hands of one of their Dealers. When I went to collect the car, I was told that MGR would be paying 60% parts AND labour.

A good result, but I remain dissappointed I had to pay anything following my experiences and my perceived impression of the F's general suceptability to HGF.

Paul
Paul Lane

Here's a differant slant to an old chestnut,unfortunately would be difficult to verify. How many MGF's have NOT had a HGF? Regards.
H.R. Bridge

H.R Bridge,
I posted a thread on this site and also on the MGRover.org site with exactly that question but about all K series cars not just the MGF. I had decent amount of replys but not many from F owners but a few none the less.
Steve Tyler

Sorry,Steve, didn't know the question had already been asked.Probably an impossible question to answer, but it would be very interesting to know the ratio of F's produced/HGF's. Regards.
H.R. Bridge

My wife and I are on our third MGF. The first one did 115,000km without HGF. The current one has done 55,000km to date with no problems. Our other current car has done 11,500miles. It was built by Techspeed for the one make race series in Japan. All the miles have been either race or road-rally miles and it still has the lead seals on the engine from the factory and it has not had HGF. I also had an Elise which did 85,000km with no problems and I understand it is now up to 150,000km (total) in the hands of the new owner with no HGF problems. I reckon they are great cars and great engines.

Regards......David
David Mottram

HR,

Very true, but i doubt that this kind of stat info will never be available to us punters. This is the reason for the Hall Of Shame. It will never be accurate as the pool of data isn't large enough, but it is an indication and this is all we have.

SF
Scarlet Fever

Paul WROTE:

>>Had the poor bleeding of Aug 2000 somehow "weakened" the gasket or caused minor warping to the head - who knows, but I doubt it.<<

From the other details you included in this thread, I'd bet money it did!!

On the subject of 'bleeding' but of a different kind, these 50-50 60-40 etc. parts/labour deals are a bit of a con IMHO. Tell you why. In 1991-2, my car which was then less than 18 months old, started to show numerous minor corrosion signs known as 'seam bleed' according to the factory inspector who came to look at my car. To rectify, the main dealership said the cost would be £600. The manufacturer agreed after some haggling by me, to support 75% of this cost with me paying the balance. Thus, I had to pay £150.

However, whilst dealer-factory negotiations were ongoing, I took my car to a well respected Gloucestershire based Car Paint and bodywork repair shop who work to a high standard. He quoted £150 to rectify that same work to a high standard! That standard was superior to that of the main dealership which for warranty obligation reasons, I had little option but to entrust with the 'seam bleed' repairs.

I spent some time looking at this problem with my own and other similar cars. Seam bleed, if neglected soon leads to more serious corrosion spreading to other parts of the bodywork. If not dealt with (as is often the case) it will lead to the early demise of the car through premature serious corrosion.

Using a powerful magnifying glass, I was able to see EXACTLY what was the real cause for this seam bleed and even wrote to the manufacturer with a simple but effective and inexpensive remedy. It fell on deaf ears as I did not receive a reply to my advices.......

A perfectly understandable result. After all, what can a knowledgeable amateur ever know compared to the professionals..... BEWARE PROFESSIONALS! They can and do harm your car and pocket!!!!!!

JMcF.
John McFeely

Thanks for that John, very interesting and some good advice
Paul
Paul Lane

This thread was discussed between 08/11/2003 and 17/11/2003

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