MG-Cars.info

Welcome to our Site for MG, Triumph and Austin-Healey Car Information.

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MGF Technical - MGTF Transmission Judder

Hi.

I have a problem thats recently materialised. When pulling away from standstill in first gear the car starts Juddering. As far as I can make out it seems to be either the transmission or clutch. Has anyone any ideas as to what could be causing this. It only seems to do it when pulling away when cold. When the engine is warmed up it seems O.K. The TF is only 13 months old and has done 11000 miles.

Cheers. Brent.
Brent

Hi, you are not alone and this was discussed back in Feb/March time. Our 2003 TF does this after it has been really hot, lots of traffic and then allowed to cool down - it seems worse in winter as I haven't noticed it so much on my wifes TF recently. I put it into B&G for them to check but couldn't replicate the fault. Someone (Tim in London?) was persuing this though his dealer but I can't remember the outcome. Try a few searches on the forum and you should find the original thread, I would do it but can't log on due works net nanny!
Tony

Yep, my TF does it too. You're right, Tony, I was persuing it with my dealer but they would only come back with no fault found. :( Seems to be common but only on TFs?? Does anyone know if there's something different between TFs and Fs in the clutch department?

Tim.
Tim Jenner

Thanks Tony & Tim, it seems like this is one of those faults that is difficult to locate and remedy, Unfortunately as you may well know the warranty is now useless and I am reluctant to take it to a dealer and pay for the privelage only for them to say "no fault found". So I'll wait and see if it gets worse.

Brent.
Brent

Difficult to diagnose from afar, but clutch judder can result from either oil contamination of the clutch or from a warped back plate.

In either case, a new clutch is going to be required I am afraid. :o(

Interesting that there have been more than a couple of reports in recent TFs - I wonder what this is about? Coincidence, or an endemic problem to a batch of cars?
Rob Bell

Rob,

I don't think it's a warped clutch, since all reports indicate that this only happens on the first couple of 1st gear take-offs from cold. Could it be faulty oil seals or something similar? On my car it's too intermittent to be able to put my finger on a trend (left standing, cold day, etc) but I wonder if anyone else has spotted a common theme??

Tim.
Tim Jenner

Could it be the handbrake not releasing fully after overnight parking? Just a thought.
roy bridge

The 'symptoms' of clutch judder are pretty specific Tim. What exactly do you feel when the problem arises?
Rob Bell

This does seem to be a problem that has been aflicting TFs rather than Fs. My 2004 TF135 does it sporadically whilst my 1996 F never did.

On the TF it occurs on damp cool mornings for about 2 miles or so. After that there seems to no problem. The symptoms are similar to the release bearing not letting go correctly and/or poor clutch springs.

A bit of warmth and it goes away.

One day I shall discuss it with an MGR type mechanic to see if there was anything documented.
John Ponting

Could it actually be a problem with the engine mounts John?
Rob Bell

Possibility Rob.

Mine's in at B&G at the moment to find the cause of the metallic graunching from the left rear hub so I'll ask Tony when I collect later.

My TF managed to 'relax' the left rear hub centre nut while I was in the Pyrenees recently. Noticed a clicking from the rear end in slow moving on/off throttle traffic and suspected drive shaft spline wear. Got it checked asap and the nut had come loose in spite of the locking washer. Tightened it up, hoping that splines hadn't been wrecked and that bearings were OK. Week later nasty noise from left rear on right turns (r'abts, fixed lock, increase throttle to load up the left side and graunch; nothing on left tuns or straight). Sounds like wheel bearing but could be anything. Have checked brake pads and cleaned and re copperslipped all round.
John Ponting

My judder is very short lived - 1st out of the parking space at work, stop 1st again at the barrier, stop and 1st again at the give way - after that it is fine at the next roundabout 200 yds away. The first time it did it I thought I had got 3rd rather than 1st, that is what the judder feels like. I wondered about the engine mounts but it all seems firm enough and all bolts are tight. It is really hard to do it on demand but definatly worse after a motorway run for 1/2hour and 10 mins in traffic and then left to go stone cold. I also thought about a slight oil leak onto the plate but the base of the bellhousing is as clean as new. Weird!
Tony

The other possibility that comes to mind is that this isn't a judder, but rather a misfire of some sort during the 'cold start' mode as the engine warms up...?
Rob Bell

Didn't get a chance to speak with malcolm this afternoon about TF judder - I was too busy paying for his next race meeting costs after they sucessfully found the nasty noise in my TF. No wear or movement in the rear suspension anywhere to help pinpoint the noise but the bearing fell out of the flange when it was dismantled - normally needs a good push to get it out. Replaced bearing and flange, all OK on dive home.

Thanks B&G
John Ponting

Just a thought, sort of happened to me today.
Could it be the MEMS thinks the engine is cold, which it is, but the ambient temperature does not really need such a rich mixture to run properly. It feels like you have too much choke out!!!! if you know what I mean.
As soon as there is a bit of heat in the system, the mixture/timing sorts itself out.
Jerry Herbert

I agree, it does feel exactly like rough running (in fact I can feel the engine's not running entirely smoothly when cold). If you slip the clutch and take longer to pull away the judder's not so bad (but still there).

Tim.
Tim Jenner

It seems to me this is a common problem. It just occurred to me that I have only recently given the TF its first service and since then this juddering has started. Also, whether this is relative to the juddering problem or not I have noticed when the engine is warm , when I accelerate from standstill it doesn't pull away as smoothly as it use to. The acceleration has a flat spot and hesitates slightly. It was an MG dealer that serviced the TF but you never Know who they give these service jobs to.
Brent

Brent's comments have just reminded me that B&G downloaded a later tune when they did my 1st service. Could conincide with me not juddering any more? A bit like that old question "when did you stop beating your wife?".
John Ponting

That's possible John. Might be worth asking B&G for a little more information: did they update the MEMS to cure the juddering problem or did they do it for something completely unrelated?
Rob Bell

Rob

MEMS update was just because the car was in for a routine service and they checked/installed the latest tune program. My Triumph bike dealer does the same - bike in for a service always gets the latest tune available from the factory.

At the time I hadn't mentioned juddering to B&G.

It would be a shame if MEMS updating stopped because of the MGR collapse - hopefully this is covered by the 'Technical Data' paragraph in the XPART Dealer Communication of 4/may/2005.

Attached Files PA-05-138 XPART LOOKS TO THE FUTURE 04.05.05.pdf
John Ponting

last part didn't work. this link is to the original document posted by Steve Childs

http://forums.mg-rover.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18987


John Ponting

I think I'll give up on the link at the moment and paste the content instead:


XPART LOOKS TO THE FUTURE
Dear Principal,
I confirm that XPart, a Division of Caterpillar Logistics Services, will take a leadership role in
providing new processes and systems to replace many of those that will cease following the
closure of MG Rover. The intention of XPart is to maintain and develop a UK, European and
International network of MG Rover Specialists, continuing to support more than three million MG
Rover drivers on the road today. XPart is also developing many innovative new parts and
service programmes to provide future All-Makes parts and service growth opportunities for the
MG Rover Dealer network.
The following outlines the immediate XPart development plans for 2005 and the following years.
Parts Availability
XPart has £40 million of MG Rover parts in our UK and European warehouses and strong
ongoing partnerships with the 800 companies that supply parts for MG Rover models. XPart is
in an excellent position to maintain uninterrupted supply of parts and information to MG Rover
Dealers worldwide and to maintain for the foreseeable future world-class parts availability levels.
XPart MG Rover Specialist Network
The future network of XPart MG Rover Specialists will be the former MG Rover Authorised
Repairers, Dealers and Importers who had a valid Parts Dealer agreement.
Parts Warranty
Effective April 28th 2005 XPart will directly warrant, for 12 months, all genuine MG Rover
replacement parts sold by XPart. Details are as agreed and have been notified to the Dealer
network. This will replace the Parts Warranty previously claimed by Dealers through MG Rover
Longbridge.
Car Warranty
XPart has agreed to work with third party insurers to offer drivers of MG Rover vehicles a
replacement insured warranty for their vehicles. This is a competitively priced chargeable
warranty for the driver and may be subsidised or funded by Dealers. XPart is launching this
offer through Dealers in the UK this week and thereafter in Europe and to our International
customers in the very near future. It is hoped that the advantages of the XPart programme will
be that warranty work will only be undertaken by the network of XPart MG Rover specialists
(former authorised repairers), work will be completed to Manufacturers Standards and will use
only genuine parts supplied by XPart.
XPart will pay a parts rebate to participating repairers.
Technical Data
XPart will provide all its currently available technical data to support dealers and is in discussion
with third parties to ensure ongoing technical support of MG Rover vehicle
Dealer Signs, XPart Autoservice Centre, All-Makes, British Car Specialist
XPart would like Dealers to sign their premises with the XPart Autoservice Centre/MG Rover
Specialist totem with appropriate wording, which may include All-Makes or outside of the UK
words such as “British Car Specialist”. Specifications and prices of such signs will be provided
on request.
All-Makes Parts
For many Dealers who wish to enter the All-Makes or British Car Specialist business under the
XPart AutoService Centre logo, XPart will plan to extend it's current UK All-Makes parts
programme to European warehouses
All-Makes Internet Diagnostics
In conjunction with TRW and other third party providers XPart will extend its highly competitive
All-Makes Vehicle Internet Diagnostic programme to France and Germany later this year and
further countries in 2006.
XPart is determined to lead and help the network exploit these future opportunities.
If you have any questions regarding this communication please e-mail
xpart_communications@cat.com
Yours sincerely,
Craig Cooper
Sales Director
contact name contact details
XPart Communications E-mail: xpart_communications@cat.com
John Ponting

I'll drop them an email about that John - see if they intend to continue 'firmware' support.
Rob Bell

This isn't unique to TFs. My '99 'F has a juddering clutch when cold too. I fear that I may have damaged something after too many attempts to pull away with frozen brakes after a frosty winter's night. The judder was never present before then. Like the others, the judder disappears when the engine is warm. Six-year service is due very soon....
S.W. Jewkes

From experience on 'other' vehicles, this type of judder is caused by surface rust on the flywheel. This requires particular circumstances, usually vehicle parked or garaged, rapid 10deg C temperature difference, (usually autumn / spring mornings and evenings), high humidity and some time for the very fine rust to form on the exposed bits on the flywheel. Once the clutch has been disengaged and 'used' a couple of times the rust is cleared. So nothing to worry about, just nature!
Mike

Try 'cleaning' the clutch - ie slip it like mad on a nice hill.

That should burn off any cr*p and high spots that could lead to the juddering.


Cheers, jt
John Thomas

hi mine has just started doing this 98 v v c same symptoms as you all hope its the cluch and flywheel !! good excuse to fit lightened and balenced flywheel. can anyone reccommend a good make?
richard

Mike, your theory of the cause of the juddering being rust on the flywheel sounds feasible but how come it doesn't happen to all TF's. My son has a TF which is 2 Years old but it doesn't happen to his car.

Richard, I'm sorry but I can't help you in recommending a good make of flywheel but if you are successful in getting one and fit it PLEASE do tell me if this does cure the problem.

Cheers. Brent.
Brent

Just a thought. Could this juddering be caused by the Anti Lock Braking System? My son has a TF 12 months older than mine but he is not experiencing this problem and he does not have ABS fitted but I do.
Brent

This thread was discussed between 30/06/2005 and 15/07/2005

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archives. Join the live MG MGF Technical BBS now