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MG MGF Technical - Problem after cab belt failed

Hi, Some weeks ago I had a cam belt failure. Ten valves, new coolant pump, new head gasket along with tappets etc..... etc..... The engine is now all back together thankfully.

However it wont start, it try's to start but to no avail. The mechanic (reputable and a good one) is at the moment lost as to the cause, the car is still in work shop.

Someone has suggested that towing it round could quite easily fix the non starter another has said they may have taken too much off the head when it was skimmed.

Has anyone had a similar problem or got any ideas?

Thanks
A Roberts

Theres nowt special about the k - but the cam pullys have poor markings - get him to pull the cam cover and see if the valves are moving in the order expected.

Other than that it could be the flywheel sensor which would give the same symptoms, or any of a million wires missing - there are several grounds that run from the engine to the ecu, the coils, injectors etc.

Things that prolly would not cause a failure to start include temp sensor, IACV, TPS.

When you say 'faulure to start' I have assumed you mean "cranking but not firing"
Will Munns

Is it a VVC or 1.8i?? Don't try tow starting as you could be back to square one with a jumped belt and bent valves.Check compression and if Ok it sounds as though the timing is out. These engines usually start first crank ..unless there is a fault somewhere so check all connections. If compression is down then tappets might be at fault due to being overloaded when valves bent and not pumping up, were these checked before refitting?? Compression test will show. Remove plugs and coil lead and spin engine over to get oil pressure up and tappets pumped up. If that doesn't work fit new tappets....and look for new garage;-))
mike

Could be something stupid like dirty sparkplugs.
Erik

Check that the right mark on the crank pulley was used to time the cam. There are two sets of marks, one for TDC, the other for the cams. Been done before for mechanics new to the engine (and also even an experienced one) to have brain-fade & mix them up. Result: No go! Miraculously, no valve damage, don't know how.

Paul
Paul Walbran

Hi all, thanks for all the reply's. A bit more info, it's a 1.8, new plugs, tappets have been checked out it does crank but wont fire. It has compression until its turned over. Spoke to the mechanic today and its possible the company that skimmed the head have taken too muck off, he's tryiny a new head as all other check have prooved ok?????

Many thanks, I will update later in the week. Thanks once again.
A Roberts

too much compression wouldn't cause it to not fire.
Will Munns

>> too much compression wouldn't cause it to not fire. <<

I agree Will - quite the opposite I'd have thought? Premature detonation?

An engine that doesn't fire suggests fuel or ignition problems - and as the cam belt has been off, consider the possibility that the cam timing is out.

I don't know what your mechanic has checked and what hasn't yet been looked at, but the commonest things happen most commonly - so double/ tripple check that the spark leads are in the correct order, and that the distributor hasn't been reassembled 180 degrees out (NB this only applies to 1.8i built prior to 2001)
Rob Bell

Rob, no dizzy on these cars , but if it has a rotor check it isnt shorting out if everthing else is ok.
"It has compression until its turned over."???
Don't quite follow that. If you are saying he has checked cylinder leakage with the valves closed and it is OK until turned over then quite simply the timing is out.
mike

Hi again, still on-going. MGF bump starts on 1st go and will tick over & drive for as long as you want. Turn the ignition off and it wont start with the key, back to the engine shop to check valve alignment. Here's hoping. Thanks
A Roberts

That makes no sense! The car starts if you turn the engine over by driving it via the wheels (bump start) but doesn't start if you turn the engine over using the starter motor?
Weird. Let us know if you get to the bottom of it.
Russell Parslow

So what happens when you turn the key: does the starter motor turn the engine over?
Rob Bell

Hi, All compression is lost via a valve, the engine shop in Leeds have today confirmed one of the valves was misaligned. Tomorrow the engine should be back together (I hope) and all should be OK. I will post another update tomorrow evening. Thanks
A Roberts

That was an oversight?? Weren't all the valves cut and checked for seating (engineers blue) and holding pressure before assembly?? Standard practice I would have thought.
mike

Hi once again, I now think the mechanic is covering something up! Here's the full stoy...... Approx. seven weeks ago coming up to a junction with the speed at 10mph or so I heard a noise and the engine cut out.

I free wheeled to the side of the road and phoned recovery. On arrival the recovery guy (not the mechanic who has the car now) went straight for the cam belt cove and confirmed the belt had broken.

I was recovered home as the mechanic I have used for 15 or so years was on holiday. On his return he phoned and told me he had arranged for the car to be towed to his garage the following day.

On inspection 10 valves had been damaged along with all the various other things that are associated with a cam belt failure, to be safe I said replace all 16 valves. The head was sent for skimming and the valves, sleeves and so on to be done.

Three weeks later the car was back together but wouldnt fire from the key. The mechanic suggested that the tappets could be at fault so they were duley sent to be sorted out, on their return they were fitted with no difference in starting the car. They were replaced with new tappets. The car bump starts without effort and will drive and run for as long as it's left but turn the ignition off and it wont start with the key.

All possible checks on compression were done and found to be spot on but as soon as the car was turned over (not started) compression was and still is lost. Late last week the head was again removed and taken to the engine shop in Leeds for the valve to be re-aligned and something else replaced (rails or something).

Today with the engine all back in place still it wont tun over with the key although the mechanic say's it's much better than it was. Without notice I called at the garage on my way home from work, no sign of the car and the mechanic's tone changed whilst speaking to another customer when he caught site of me.

Still the same answer as earlier although he had bumped it and it runs fine. I am beginning to wonder if he's taking the mick. Thinking this and not wanting a comfrontation (he's a friend and I thought a good mechanic) I've told him to drop the car off at my house on Saturday morning as I cant go on indefinatelly. He replied that the engine shop are going to give it a once over tomorrow.

Apologies for babbling on but I would like your opinion on the situation.

Thanks again.




A Roberts

IMO he's underqualified to do the job, period.
mike

Good Grief,

You have been through the wringer. You have my sympathy.

Can't understand what wont start on key, but will bump start. All I can think is that its starting on 3 cylinders. Turn over by key will not be enough to allow the 3 cylinders to allow it to start but bump start will, so its probably compression.

I had the same. Driving car at 30mph in evening down town when noise and car cut out. Attempted to restart several times (Oh dear I hear you say). Called AA, they said cam belt gone. Took to mechanic (not rover garage) he said valves etc stuffed. Was replaced and all ok with loos of loads of money. Result - always change cam belt !

However, 2 months later car won't start, call AA, they check compression say all ok, use a blow torch on spark plugs, and attempt start, still won't work.

Phoned mechanic with conversation, "Hi I paid the pice of a house to fix car and won't start now" He comes out, trys key no luck, bump starts and all ok. He says its compression, takes away and says "told you repair, isn't as good as new engine, but reseated and all fine now" Its been fine since !



Brian

Hi, The car has now been looked at by MG in Leeds (the ones that skimmed the head etc....) They are "stumped" after a day of testing and stripping and re-building they cant understand why it wont start with the key........ Only answer is a new engine!!!!!

Without any other option I have given the go-a-head to fit a brand spanking new engine next week. Wife loses a winter holiday!!!!!!!!!!! but the car gains a new "lump".

Thanks for all your reply's they are much appreciated.

Cheers for now.
A Roberts

I can understand your frustration after waiting for the car to be fixed for so long but a new engine is a a drastic step to take for a few bent valves. If they have messed up the head then maybe you should try a new head first. Anyhow you should not let anybody associated with the original repair touch the car again and get an independent assesment of the damage in case you want to pursue a claim against them. These people are clearly incompetent or are trying to cover something up. We are not talking about a space shuttle engine here, any professional mechanic and most amateurs should be able to fix it. Cut your losses now and take it elsewhre.

Spyros
Spyros Papageorghiou

What are you doing with your old engine ? I'm over near Pudsey and could be interested in something to tune the knackers off over winter and drop into mine next year :)
Alex T

I think I'd agree.

I was told the same "really you need a new engine" but went on the repair but had problems as discussed above.

Good luck at least you will have comfort from the fact its not goibg to die on you and not start when stopped at an M6 service station !

Its going to cost, but the mg is a brilliant car and "they don't make them anymore"!!!
Brian

If car won't start after everything checks out ok then it would point to a fault elsewhere, maybe fueling,ignition??
mike

It is a pity that you are not taking your car to MGF10 at Gaydon today as anyone who knows anything about MGFs will be present and 'Experts' would be lining up to fix your car for the price of a pint of beer.
Geoff F.
G. Farthing

I've just had similar problem with my MGF just off M6, when i stopped in traffic my engine cut out, tried to start and no go. (Middle of Aston Expressway) called breakdown who initially thought it was a imobiliser problem, they took it to the garage and called me about an hour later and said cam belt had snapped.

They spoke about prices and i've had it taken straight home in fear.

After calling around i've managed to get it in a garage who said they can do skim valves etc.. and should be able to get it back on the road at a cost of 395 + vat, which is i'm thinking, not bad, however reading about problems that have occoured above, am i just better getting an engine straight away....?
a re-con?
or a bike..?

any advice welcome...? (for info Garage giving quote is best of british in Wednesbury west Midlands - so any feedback on the garage would be welcome too..!)
Clint

Clint, the difficulty is assessing the extent of the damage before removing the cylinder head - a task that is almost impossible. Therefore it is very hard to advise.

If you're lucky (if the failure occurred at a low engine speed), then it won't cost much to refurbish the existing head and pistons, and this will be the cheapest option.

If you're unlucky, the head, pistons and liners will all be FUBAR - and frankly, you're into new engine territory.

What route would I take? Depends on how much I needed the car, how much time I had, but assuming that I had the time and inclination, I'd remove the cylinder head myself and have a good look.

If handing the car over to a garage to have a look, then frankly, I'd go with a second hand engine that I knew was a good runner. Far cheaper, labour wise, to simply swap two components than refurbish a damaged unit.

Keep the old engine though - you should be able to sell it to someone who wants to rebuild it.
Rob Bell

Thanks Rob,

In terms of a second hand engine, how much do you think this might cost all in..? I suppose it depends if i drop lucky, but i'll still need to get put in.

The totally gutting part is, i had it booked in to be done a month before it went, but put it off due to lack of cash...!

I cant decide...? :(

Clint

Depends on the engine Clint - the VVC costs considerably more, but the 1.8 is reasonable. Cost also depends on condition and mileage.

About 500 quid ought to buy a good condition MPi engine. Try the usual reclaimed parts stockists - MGF Centre, Midland MGF and Roverspares.
Rob Bell

Hi all, After pricing a recon engine (45,000 miles) £995.00 including fitting I've decided on a new one from MGOC Spares and Accessories £1390.00 + refundable deposit on my old engine of £454.00. My old engine does however now turn-over from the key but for peace of mind I've gone for a new one. The guy's at MGOC Spares and Accessories are brilliant and I would recommend anyone needing spares or indeed a new engine to give the a call first, customer service second to none. Thanks again.
A Roberts

A Roberts,

Best of British (Midlands Area) do a brand new MGF engine for 1000, don't know if of any help to you, but there number is 0121 526 5444.

They specialise in Rover and MG and i think they have in stock too.

Clint
Clint

FAO Rob Bell,

Had car back today, all ok, just needed 8 valves, cam belt, tensioners and a skim, no damage to pistons...!

400 quid the lot...! bloody lucky!

Clint

Hi, F to be picked up this coming Wednesday (fingers crossed), after £2000.00 spent & what seems a life time in the garage it better run like a dream. I'm sure it will have been worth it. Will be using a different garage in the future, friend or not I think I've been messed about. Thanks.
A Roberts

Jeez Clint,that's v. cheap,people pay more than that just for the HGF fixing with no valve damage.
Pete

This thread was discussed between 03/10/2005 and 29/10/2005

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