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MG MGF Technical - Very Stiff gear. Hollidays are over :-(

Hi guys,

First of all sorry for the long thread. But Iīve don my fair bit of research in the archives. I wanted to share it. Here goes the story:

I Thought I had a failure proof car. I was wrong. 4th day of a supposedly 20 day roundtrip in France, changing gears became nearly impossible. I Pulled aside and called assistance. Gears could be shifted in 1st, almost had to use both hands though. 2nd,not abailable (too stiff to get into) 3rd available, again very heavy shifting.

In the workshop, the car was mounted on the brigde and I tried to move the gear box manually. No possible way. Snapped cables? No, the cables are not snapped.

Thinking back on what I felt during that day. I remember the gears were soft. I have Mikeīs SSKII installed and the shift should be riffle bolt change click-clack. In the morning though, changing kinda felt like cutting through hard frozen butter, no riffle bolt. Iīve had this feeling once before (a year ago) but it went away after a mile or so. No it persisted until the final failure.

Iīve been browsing the archives on this and found two possible causes:

As we travelled 200mi upto 350mi / day
following may have occured

1.
<<During the long trip, excess heat may
be generated in the box causing expansion to all the gear parts which in turn may cause gear selection to go crappy>>

No crappy sound were observed.

2.
<<The proximity of the heater pipes and the general heat in the engine bay is likley to have an effect on the cables>>

The failure happened after weīd stopped for for lunch, car was parked for about 1hr.
As the boot was filled with clothes and I had a luggage rack fitted (incl. suitcase). The heat might have been a problem. Although it had been raining.

3.
<< I have heard of gearboxes needing relacement when the oil level is allowed to get low. Circa 1 litre or less on a 2.2 litre capacity. Usually as soon as the oil level drops so there is a noticeable increase in gearbox rattle and noise, especially at idle>>

The car had 40k service. They might have forgotten to top the oil. didnīt check the bill. But then, I heard no rattle and noise before it went.

4.
<<The input shaft seal failure is not a common failure>>

Hmm. The linkage to the input shaft has been replaced by the SSKII linkage.Is it possible that this caused excessive wear and tear on the shaft seal. But then again, loss of oil should result in rattles and other noises.

Can any of the beloved gurus let their light shine on this problem? I have a couple of days before the car arrives at my local dealership. (of which I have been satisfied upto now). As usual I want to support them with all possible knowledge in order to avoid unnecessary work being performed to the car (99 reg out ot warranty)

Thanks in advance.

Two Stalled *F*īrs,

David & Annemiek P-N.


David Peters

Dave

Ive just had a problem recently with the rear linkage to the gearbox, 1st, 2nd and 3rd were OK but 4th, 5th and reverse were virtually non existent, the rear linkage was bent over due to a little incident I had ;). Have you checked the rear linkage?


Cheers


Carl
Carl Fairhurst

Hi carl,

I only "looked" at the linkage, but I didnīt really check it for damage though. As soon as the car gets here, Iīll check for damage.

What worries me it that I couldnīt get the car into gear manually by grasping the rear linkage (directly onto the shaft) and pull/push/turn it into gear.

Thanks,
David.
David Peters

Anyone else wants to give it a shot?

Thanks,
David
David Peters

How about clutch failure?

Sam
Sam Murray

Sam,

Yes I thought of that too. Strange enough a friend of mine suffered a clutch brakedown that same day in the same country, with another car though. He couldnīt engage in any gear any more.

Iīm not that technically minded, but if the clutch fails, is it still possible to engage into a gear (1st, 2nd)? Can you still press/depress the clutch pedal?

Thanks,
david
David Peters

David, the symptoms you describe point to clutch failure. The clutch is hydraulically operated on the MGF, check the small tank under the bonnet (front), next to the bulkhead. Is it empty? the circuit is probably leaking somehwere. You can temporarily solve the problem by refilling it with hydrauilc (same as brake) fluid.

Does your clutch pedal feel numb? If so then that's the cause.
Anthony Braham

David,
did you check for *easy* working clutch lever ?
I think on the rusty lever shaft. Location where it enters the gearbox housing.

Just my few cents.

Dieter
Dieter K.

Anthony,

Checked under the bonnet at the time, saw two reservoirs, one with brake fluid and another one. Both did not seem empty. But at that time, I didnīt realise the clutch on the *F* was hydraulically assisted. Found out about this, this morning at breakfast *LO*, reading some technical stuff. There might have been a leak or the coupling plate might have worn out.
If this is the case, costs might be acceptable.
Did it feel numb? Canīt remember that, although it is crucial in the reasoning.

Dieter,
Didnīt check the the seals at the entrance of the gear box. It seems they are prone to failure.

Hopefully the car gets here by Friday, so I can have a look before my dealership starts to fiddle at it.

Iīll keep you posted. Thanks for the "list of possibilities"

David.


PS: so for once, this is not an MG related problem. now thatīs a first! Clutch failure, shame on me, thought I was a good driver.
David Peters

Sorry to read this, David :(

BTW, my clutch is slowly dieing for some time, and I'll have to replace it sooner or later... (IMO within 3 months). I intend to replace it myself, possibly with some help. How difficult is it ? what is involved (not in details) ? Is it possible to access it by just dropping the gearbox a little ?

oops ! All this is not helpful for you, David... The point I wanted to make is : I intend to purchase an AP-Racing clutch. I already phoned the company that imports AP stuff into Belgium (they are in Namur). They didn't have MGF/Elise clutches in stock, but could get them in 1 to 3 weeks. The price was reasonable at about 180 EUR + VAT. If you want the details, I can find them again.

But hey, it's maybe not a clutch failure... And IMHO it doesn't sound like one. I once suffered one (not with the MG), and the symptoms were different and more obvious !

Good luck,
Fabrice
Fabrice

Hi Fabrice,

From what Iīve read on this board and others, the symptoms Iīve experienced canīt be accorded to a specific problem. Time will have to tell what it is.

I am told that dropping the gear box is not that sipmle. It needs to be dropped level.
Let alone dropping it unevenly to take off the clutch.
I am not a specialist though.

I assume the hydraulic system used to operated the MGF clutch can be used to assist the AP clutch.
180 EUR is not a bad price.

My car will be Belgium by the end of the week. I guess Iīll have to sit and wait.

Cheers,
David.

David Peters

If it is the clutch you should still be able to get all gears easily when the engine isn't running.

If you can't get gears without the engine running it is likely to be a linkage problem.

Andy
Andy

Like Andy, I don't think it is the clutch. I also have the MS SSK2 on my car and I have experienced similar problems as you, although not as severe (my gearchange just gets a bit stiffer when it is extremely hot, but I still get all the gears). I e-mailed Mike Satur about the matter and he suggested that there might not be enough play in the adjustment of the cables. Some play is apparently necessary to allow for the expansion of the cables' sleeves during extremely hot conditions.

A sure way to tell whether or not it is indeed heat related is to check the movements of the gearlever in the morning when the car is stone cold. The movements of my gearlever are always perfectly well oiled and easy in the morning, so I believe Mike Satur might be right in what he told me and I plan to loosen a bit (2 turns maybe?) the rear cable ends next time I get underneath my car.

HTH

Per
Per

Per,

Youīre spot on. The hinging points donīt have bearings. i.e. self lubricating copper bearings are frequently used for this application. The latter is according to my mechanic the least that should be used. There is no tolerance for expansion due to hot weather or heat produced during long drives (+300km). The shaft/rod/ax (whatever to call it) left and right from the stickīs alli base block that pivots in the lefthand side U shaped block and righthand flat block.
http://www.mikesatur.co.uk/images/ssk2.jpg
These holes have been enlarged (drilling or abrasive automotive sand paper)and heavily greased up. However, my mechanic could not give me any guarantee it cannot go wrong again. If it was upto him heīd replace it by the original unit, NOT.

Widening the holes evidently leads to more play in the stick, resulting in a less firm grip. Short throw stays the same.
But then, I can live with that if it doesnīt leave me stranded again in the middle of France.

Now, where does this leave me???

David.

David Peters

Re "youīre spot on":

It wasnīt really the cables Per.

regards,
David.
David Peters

Driving in France last Friday and weekend caused almost the same problem... stiff gear change and occasionally unable to shift into the proper gear.

The situation got slightly better when removing the ashtray so that some 'fresh' air could get into the transmission tunnel while driving.

I will relubricate the system during the week, any ideas which product to use ?
Erik

Erik, coppergrease or even better ceramic grease. You can even try the HT-oil, I give you a few weeks ago, but I'm not sure it will hold for a long time. Infact relubricating the system is not the perfect solution IMO. When these high temperatures hold on, I think the construction of the system is wrong, as sugested above by David.
Also a solution (for a short time)as I posted on the dutch BBS, Try to spray some quickfreeze (-45C°) on your SSK when the gearshift is stucked. It will help you for maybe an hour.
BV Bruno

Erik,

I think we all ought to stay out of France *LOL*

No, seriously, the problem is surely not cable related otherwise it should have arisen before, with the OEM (is that the correct abbreviation?) gear assy.

I think you should get it worked at as I did.

Good luck,

David.

(standing by for assistance!)
David

keeping thread alive in case Per hasnīt read it.

Also suprised about low response to this IMO remarkable fact!

David.
David Peters

David,

I have now caught up with the latest posts...

I am starting to think that you are right and that it is indeed the gearlever mechanism itself which is the problem. Looking at the mechanism, one does indeed see that there is no room whatsoever for any play or heat expansion... (which, of course, is what gives the perfectly precise and mechanical gearchanges in the winter...)

I haven't had the time yet to look into the matter in detail (I'm a father since ten days ago and I'm starting to realise that the days when I wanted to spend the week-ends under my car are well and truly over... ;-) ), but I think that I will try to lubricate the lever mechanism before I touch the cables. I want to do that after a long drive in the heat, when gearchanges are a bit stiff (My car being a TF, I can easily remove just the gearlever surround to get quick access to the mechanism). I'll let you know how I get on.

Regarding the somewhat muted response to your findings, I think it is due to a combination of things, among which the fact that everyone is out driving in this lovely wheather and the fact that Mike Satur enjoys a very good reputation for his products in general and his SSK in particular. I think this is entirely well deserved. I have several of his products on my car and I am very happy with most of them, but there is no denying that he sometimes pushes the limits of what will work in practice under extreme conditions. The MG OE gearchange mechanism, for instance, may feel somewhat sloppy but it will work flawlessly in all conditions from Mexico to Japan and from Portugal to Sweden. The SSK however, may be built to tolerances which are just a little too tight for the extreme conditions which we see now in continental Europe. Still, I'm confident that a few weeks' of time and a few drops of oil will see my gearchange back to its former glory.

Per
Per

Per,

Congratulations with your new born!!! Me and my wife are still in trial and error stage, but hope to join you in the world of parenthood pretty soon.

>mechanical gearchanges in the winter

Donīt forget heater pipes run in the middle console, next to the gear lever. I wonder if these could not be a cause?

>I can easily remove just the gearlever surround.
Youīre lucky. Getting access to this area in an *F* is a real pain!!!

> I have several of his products on my car >and I am very happy with most of them

Upto now Iīve only had "cosmetic" add-ons from Mike, of which I am more than pleased.
No doubt about the quality and looks of these.
As for mechanically tuned parts, this has been my first venture (besides the exhaust, filter and throttle body)into changing vital OEM items rather than bolt-on stuff. Logically my confidence in these articles have received a serious blow. Beware, this is not restricted to Mikeīs products. There are others supplying AM parts... I know, some OEM tend to be more prone to failure than AM parts *LOL* (wiper mech, HG,...)

I think my attitude at the moment is just a first reaction after having had this bad experience. No doubt that my confidence will grown again, when new product are being released.

Condider it like the Dark Side in me which has suffered a minor setback and is working itīs way up again. *LOL*

regards,
David.
David Peters

This thread was discussed between 27/07/2003 and 15/08/2003

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