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MG MGF Technical - Watchdog
| To all, Did anyone see watchdog last night? They did a feature on Rover regarding head gasket failures on land rovers, rovers and mgf's, and it got me thinking. I know some people on this website have suffered at the hands of a hgf, and i wondered as a new mgf driver myself whether there are any preventitive actions or ways of diagnosing an hgf in its early stages to avoid total damage?? It is quite worrying that it happens to cars with low mileage. My MGF is 3 years old, just out of its warranty and has done 22K, i am just concerned that if it happens to me and like other drivers, we have to pay up for damage caused. Any comments or recommendations would be appreciated. Andrea |
| A Hall |
| You'd be looking at £400 to £600 for repair. There is no way to tell for sure, keep an eye on the water level (don't open when hot). The head gasket seperates four(five) things: Water (low pressure) Oil (high pressure) Oil (low pressure) Combustion (vHigh pressure) the outside (vLow pressure) traditionaly HGF is noticed when 1 meets 5, just over the alternator/exaust, big clouds of steam Or when the oil and water mix, 1 and 3 are more common, leading to mayo on the dipstick, but 1 and 2 also sometimes happens leading to mayo in the water tank. The trick is to stop IMMEDIATLY you see the temp rise, and DO NOT put cold water into a hot engine. This will prevent and further dammage (dead engine). Don't thrash the engine when cold, and don't worry about something you have little control over. |
| Will Munns |
| Cheers for your comments Will, although my water temp gauge does not seem to move past half way. The oil gauge however does fluctuate.....what are "normal" levels??? Andrea |
| A Hall |
| There is a thread on this subject on the General board, lots of replies already. As regards preventative measures, i'm afraid there are none AFAIK. Certainly none that are proven anyway. Usual stuff like not revving the engine hard until the oil temperature guage shows some movement, regular checks of coolant/oil levels (i.e. daily rather than weekly) and keeping an eye out for suspect puddles under the car can't hurt, but is there something you can do to actually prevent it happening? I don't think so. You can though 'be prepared', i saved up £500.00 in a seperate account over 6 years as an 'HGF fund' and it came in handy when my one eventually went at 96,000 miles. You can also be informed about HGF by reading forums such as this, this'll give you an insight into the problem and what should be done during a repair to try to prevent re-occurrence (heavy duty replacement gasket, steel dowells etc). The major problem with HGF on an F or Elise is the location of the engine. When it fails you get a big cloud of steam, in a front engined car like the Freelander, R75, R45, R25 this is a big hint that you should stop the car and not continue driving. In an F or Elise, the cloud of steam is behind you and there is a chance you won't spot it (especially after dark) and will carry on driving with no coolant, thus 'cooking' the engine and doing major damage. All you can do is be vigillant and hope you spot it happening, by the time the temp guage registers you have a problem it is usually too late so you can't rely on it... :-( Loads in the archives (probably too much if the truth be told, you'll have a hell of a job picking out the wheat from the chaff if you search for HGF in there). SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| 90 - 150 degrees, this is the range i get on Scarlet and i have to really go some to get it to 150 degrees (like several trips round the Nurburgring for instance!) :-) SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Mine rarely goes much above 60. I disagree that the temp gauge is useless, problem is, if you lose all the water then there is nothing to move the gauge untill (superheated) steam hits it, at which point it dives for the red. The other problem is people want gauges that go to the centre and don't move, this simply doesn't happen in an engine, where there is a normal range of about 20 degrees (between good cooling and fan turn on), so the gauge is heavly damped and hasn't much deflection away from centre. |
| Will Munns |
| Yes, purely by chance I saw it too. However, it was not the usual over-balanced slant often shown on this type of consumer TV programme. No doubt some gaskets can and do fail on any car. However, time and again the head gasket gets the blame.... I wonder how many of those "head gasket failures" are a bi-product result of some other failing first..... Certainly, head gaskets can fail but, human nature being what it is .... a loose hose, incorrect or negligent servicing, or.... Oh look at the temperature gauge ... still running alright though so I'll keep going for a while ... should make the appointment on time or at least get to the next exit. On two occasions been a passenger in a car where this has happened (not a K series) and the driver has carried on with predictable results. Had it been their own car and not the company's, they would have stopped immediately at the first sign that something was not right! There was even a strong hint of this sort of thing by one of the contributors on the programme. That was surprising. Many drivers have little mechanical "nouse" and provided the gauge is reading near normal, all must be well .... I wonder what percentage of those "failures" have this element in them.... JMcF |
| John McFeely |
| Andrea, I've suffered two HGFs with my '98 VVC, which is now approaching 60K miles. I honestly don't think I could have prevented either one by driving differently or taking any more care of the car. It was serviced for the first three years by one of the better main dealers (Priests of Chesham) and since then by a very competent MGF specialist (Tech-Speed Motorsport). It has always been in top condition mechanically and I have always checked coolant levels carefully. After both HGFs a great deal of effort was put into trying to discover the cause and despite all the technical gurus involved no-one can be sure what actually happened. This makes it difficult to pin down what to do differently. The only change I've made to my driving, is to be exceptionally careful about warming the engine up before going above 3k revs and cooling it down before switching it off. I use the oil temperature to do this. I haven't changed my behaviour towards checks - I always check the coolant level - regularly. ANY drop is to be investigated. I have suffered two split hoses and a radiator bleed screw failing, any of which could have produced another HGF if the leak went unoticed and enough coolant was lost. Other problem areas, not suffered by me personally despite the car being almosy six years old, are coolant pipe and radiator corrosion. These have been known to occur on cars that are no more than two or three years old. My first HGF (an oil/water mix) was on the original gasket and plastic dowels. Conventional wisdom says that once replaced with an improved gasket and steel dowels you should have no problem. The repair was done with the latest Mike Satur gasket and steel dowels. The Mike Satur gasket has the rubber strip pinned through unlike the original MGR gasket where it is just glued, but this didn't prevent the rubber strip lifting either side of the pinning and producing the second HGF - a classic water to the outside world job, just above the alternator. There seem to be many contributory factors to HGF - most associated of course with the cooling system. The actual gasket and the steel dowels are just some of the factors in a complex equation. One change that has gone relatively unoticed in the very latest TFs is that the thermostat has been replaced with a different type. It is now pressure and temperature sensitive and is plumbed in very differently from the original. This was introduced on the production line in Jan 03, yet there still seem to be very few such engines on the road. Another difference with the TF160 is the oil/water cooler fitted as standard. Improving my own car continually, I have already had the TF160 oil cooler fitted and intend to swap to the new thermostat as soon as I can lay my hands on one! However, both of these are expensive routes to peace of mind. However, I use my car for track days and so the cooling system has to work harder. The VVC also seems to run the oil much hotter. Rob Bell and I are also investigating options to keep the coolant circulating for a period of time after engine shutdown. This may help the forgetful amongst us who switch off after a high speed motorway bash! Apologies for the lengthy reply. What's the bottom line? Check coolant levels regularly, warm your engine up and down, then just drive and enjoy. |
| Dave |
| The AA do a choice of warranty plans that cover this. If already a member, Parts & Labour Plan at about £1 per week. Member or not, Extended Warranty. Loads of mentions in the archive, probably Technical rather than General. Also see AA website. |
| JohnP |
| 8 years. 74000 miles. No HGF. Andrea, the bottom line is not to get too hung up about this problem. We do not know how much of a 'problem' this is (only MG Rover will know - from data recieved from warranty claims) - so it is easy to build an overly pesimistic picture of gasket failures that bares little relation to reality - but I guess you may have already figured that out already! Regarding preventative maintenance? Not a lot to do other than those coolant checks - as Dave says, any precipitous drop in the level NEEDS investigation (I've had a holed radiator and a failed inlet manifold gasket - either of which could have resulted in gasket failure had the problem been ignored). If your car ever has a coolant change, ensure that teh system is properly bleed (three bleed screws and two jiggle valves to contend with) As Andy mentions above, never labour or rev the engine much above 3000rpm whilst the oil temperature is below 60¼C. A point to note - if your car is coming up to be 3 years old, your engine already benefits from uprated gaskets, head location dowels and a few other details that have, since 1999, dramatically cut the number of reported HGFs (at least those reported on http://www.shame.4mg.com). The 2003 model year TF benefits from a completely new design of thermostat that should dramatically cut the incidence of HGF - and this is a modification that interestingly was pioneered on the LR Freelander... I think that this will be another area that Dave and I will be investigating once the current project is completed. :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Wonder if earlier TF owners would be able to "ask?" for the latest stat' set up to be fitted to replace the original set up, which is obviously suspect, otherwise, why alter it? Or could MGR offer the mod' at a nominal price i.e just charge for the parts? What about it all you pre 03 TF owners? A letter to MGR? Regards. |
| H.R. Bridge |
| Dave (of Amersham) or Rob (Bell) - or anyone else with knowledge of engine numbers. I was interested to hear that the early 2003 TFs have a different thermostat arrangement. I bought my new TF in June so it should have the new type, but I realise that the car or engine may have been around for a while and therefore could be pre the new layout. Is there a way of telling the build date from the engine number, and therefore whether it has the new thermostat? The engine number is 18K4FP27594836. Peter Heather |
| P Heather |
| Peter, I don't have that information unfortunately. However, your local garage, or someone with access with the 2003 RAVE disc should be able to help... I'll make some enquiries, as I think I know someone with the appropriate disc. Other than that, you can tell the difference by appearance. The thermostat up to 2003 looks the same across all models. See Dieter's web site for more details - close ups here: http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.de/thermostat/3817engine_left_1.jpg And with the thermostat removed - http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.de/thermostat/Dcp_5543.jpg Not yet seen any pictures of the new thermostat in place. |
| Rob Bell |
| 48000 miles nearly 8 years no HGF!!!!!!!!! that really is tempting fate isnt it!!! when will it blow? why is is that I should be worried? bad form MG-R not fixing this prob decades ago! |
| Neil |
| > Rob Bell and I are also investigating options to keep the coolant circulating for a period of time after engine shutdown. This may help the forgetful amongst us who switch off after a high speed motorway bash! Wasnt there a product featured in MG world this month that performed a similar task. The device if I remember rightly would heat the colling system before the engine was switched on to allow it to circulate through the engine. I would imagine a system like this could be adapted to perform the opposite |
| Bob Millar |
| Without looking you must be talking about the kenlowe hotstart, but this requires mains power to heat and circulate, Robs solution (stolen from the Lotus extige) uses battery power to keep the circulation running. |
| Will Munns |
| > this requires mains power to heat Wouldnt stake my life on it but I'm not sure it did. It was a simple electric pump & heater system. Dont have MG World to hand but will check when I get home! |
| Bob Millar |
| One of the great advantages of the Internet is we all get to see what is going on and 'chat' to each other, one of the disadvantages is things can get 'blown up' and out of proportion. I just wonder if the MGF 'hgf' is not in the latter category - even after dumping all its coolant in a rather spectacular and very public way The Green Squirrel is still going strong and it is going on eight years of age now and still on its original head gasket. Not that many weeks ago someone asked Honest John (Daily Telegraph Motoring Section) this question and he replied that there was no evidence that the K series was any worse than any other mass produced engine And remember that whilst the BBC will be careful not to be libelous (or whatever) it is still out to 'entertain' and it can only do this by being extreme. Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| The solution that Dave and Will refer to is the electric water boost pump that switches on after engine switch off. It's plumbed into the water bypass circuit and powers up according to temperature and time after ignition-off (Tim, did you get the details I sent you?) Not quite the same as the Kenlow system Bob - but if you connected a mains driven water pump to the car when parked up, then yes, you'd be doing something similar to what we're proposing, and what Lotus VHPD variants already use... |
| Rob Bell |
| Andrea, check out my reply on MGF General See if that sheds any light.. Steve |
| Steve Tyler |
| >>I bought my new TF in June so it should have the new type, but I realise that the car or engine may have been around for a while and therefore could be pre the new layout. << Hi Peter, according to the information I've recieved so far, it appears that ALL TFs should have been fitted with the new type of thermostat (at least, the applicable VIN range is from 600101) >> Is there a way of telling the build date from the engine number, and therefore whether it has the new thermostat? << To my surprise, although the new thermostat is fitted in an altogether new position, the old thermostat housing is retained, albeit, with a thermostat actually installed! Looking at the figures I've recieved, the best way to know whether you have the pressure sensitive thermostat installed on your TF is to jack up the rear wheels, and peer into the engine bay from below. The new thermostat is located in the rubber hose connected to the under-body coolant pipes (LHS/ nearside of the car) If any one can provide a picture, I'd be very grateful! I've not actually seen one on a TF yet!!! |
| Rob Bell |
| > the old thermostat housing is retained, albeit, with a thermostat actually installed Is this a tongue in cheek statement or is there actually no thermostat on older F's. Also can this new thermostat set-up be fitted to an older F and what kind of cost would be involved? |
| Bob Millar |
| >> Is this a tongue in cheek statement or is there actually no thermostat on older F's. << More of a "I can't bl**dy type" kind of statement Bob ;o) Should have read: " the old thermostat housing is retained, albeit, withOUT a thermostat actually installed" Regarding the second question - can this new TF thermostat be installed in an F, the answer is yes it can. A fair bit of pipe work would need to be replaced. How much would this cost? Good question, but apparently it is nearly impossible to source new parts at the moment because they're all being installed in cars at the factory! Best bet (and cheaper) would be to obtain all the hoses, unions and thermostat from a specialist breaker [usual list of our favourite MGF specialists here] |
| Rob Bell |
| Hi Rob Many thanks for that reassuring information. I haven't got round to jacking the car up to peer underneath yet though. It's a bit cold out there for that today! Peter |
| P Heather |
| Yeah - I know what you mean. Brrrr! Pitty, as I have plenty of things I want to do on the car :o/ |
| Rob Bell |
| Just spoke to my friendly MGR mechanic,Blimey! what a one sided stunted conversation!, Watchdog have brought the MGR shutters down in fine style!What he would say.......T.F.'s started to appear with new 'stat April/May, 03. Originally he had the one part No. for the complete assy',unfortunately now, all separate parts and numbers. Promised to supply list/prices next week.Said MGR had looked at the electric water pump delay, but had decided against it(no reasons given,not to me anyway).Chances of re-call or some nominal help to up-grade, zilch! "We reserve the right to alter change...etc etc....". Two other things he did say,apologies if this is already old hat, firstly 90% of all pressure caps that he tests, fail, so fit a new one every 12 months, better still every 6 months, it's critical.Secondly,always have the heater control set to HOT on starting up,wait till temp' gauge comes up, then set control to whatever temp' you require.So if you have a pre 03 TF, you don't have the new set-up. Regards. |
| H.R. Bridge |
This thread was discussed between 22/10/2003 and 24/10/2003
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