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MG TD TF 1500 - Advice needed: TF rear hub bearings & collars

The rear hubs/brake drums on my TF "Clack" when I push the car side-to-side. Is this normal?

The wheels can be pushed left and right with an accompanying "Clack" when they are jacked off the ground. The amount of play is equal on both wheels. The axle nuts are tightened to 100 ft-lb+. The car has disc wheels.

It appears that the hubs/drums do not fit snugly against the tapered split collar for the oil seal. One of the collars is chipped at the split.

What's involved and how difficult to replace the collars (Moss #266-030), bearings (Moss 128-000), spacer (Moss 266-020), and oil seal (Moss #120-700)?
https://mossmotors.com/td-tf-rear-axle

The car is a rolling chassis. Access is easy.

The Workshop Manual says "... no repairs or adjustments apart from those connected with the half-shafts and rear wheel bearings, brake-drums and shoe mechanism can be carried out without removing the complete axle unit from the car."

No info about replacing the parts. Looks like they are accessible by removing the brake plate and bearing housing/brake plate support. But also looks like not much access to grab the bearing and collar.

> How do I learn if the hubs are the problem?
> Do you feel that replacing the bearings and collars will cure my "clack"?
> Is this realistically a do-able job?
> If so, will you please give me some tips from your experience?

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie. If the drums are moving on the splines best to remove them and inspect the splines for wear on both the axles and the drums. If there is wear on the axles they need to be replaced. Once that is done if the drums still move on the splines either back and forth or wobble then you need to find a suitable drum for replacement. The collars are easily replaced by inserting and driving a screw driver in the slot to spread the collar. Then it will slip off. The axle should pull out off the tube fairly easily but sometimes the drum needs to be put back on with the axle nut fitted. Then you can use a 3 fingered axle puller that has a slide hammer and pull them out. The bearing will be a press fit on the axle. If you have a hydraulic press And a bearing puller you can press them out and install new bearings Do not hammer on new bearings. Impact shocks will spall the bearings making them useless
W A Chasser

And part of your problem may be that the axles need to be torqued to at least 150#.

Also, to pull the bearing and axle out of the housing, re-install the brake drum with the nut tightened only a few turns, and use the drum itself as a slide hammer. Works every time!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Can you take it apart and send/post pictures? Specifically of the axle splines and the splines inside the hub/drum? While possible, most likely not bearing. Easy to check with the drum off. If not a bearing problem, then no need to pull the brake back plate, etc. You may need a puller to pull the drum, however if you loosen the nut and it almost falls off likely some wear. Also, not sure why there would be a chip in the collar, seems that should be changed. George
George Butz III

Taking all the recommendations under consideration, and if the bearings are original, I'd replace them with new also, if their sloppy they can contribute to lateral play. Bearings don't last forever.
PJ Jennings

My experience is that re-using the original axle bearing is almost always possible, because it is a better-quality bearing than can be found today. Nine times out of ten the original bearings are Ransome & Marles, and the replacements are off-shore.

Obviously, if there is any noise from or play in the bearing it needs to be replaced, but the bearing gets much differential lube, and is generally just fine to re-use.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Thanks Bill, Tom, George, and Paul - I value each of your knowledge and advice.

I'll take photos and videos today and post tonight. I have attached photos that I took last night to this post and the next post.

I replaced the brake shoes in 2014. I believe that I used a puller to remove the hubs/drums. I tightened the axle nuts to approx. 140 ft-lb.

The shoes were replaced again last year as part of the chassis blast / paint / prep for restoration. Did so because I thought that they may have been contaminated. (They were OK). The shop that replaced the shoes also replaced various suspension parts and painted the chassis. One of the owners told me that one of the axle nuts was very difficult to remove and the threads in the axle nut were stripped in the process. He purchased a new axle nut from Moss. I believe that it was on the left axle. I'll try to find the damaged nut today.

I had two purposes to remove the hubs yesterday: 1) to locate the source of a couple of drops of mystery fluid that dripped down the brake baking plates and fell on the inside of both rear wheels. 2) to find the reason for the "Clack" when I pushed the car left and right and to retorque the axle nut to try to stop it.

The axle nuts were easy to remove. The hubs slipped off with no resistance. Everything had been cleaned and lightly greased.

The left hub has almost no movement on the splines. The right hub moves a little. I switched them left-to-right. The movement was then on the left shaft.
The wear appears to be mostly in the hub.

I replaced the hubs and coated the stub with ANTI-SEIZE.
> Is the 150 ft-lb target with dry threads or lubed?

The "castles" on the nuts stopped at the hole for the split pin at 85 ft-lb on one nut, and at 120 ft-lb on the other. I could not rotate the nut to the next castle opening with a 1/2" drive 24" breaker bar. Well, actually, I guess that I could but would ask you for confirmation before proceeding.

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211

Photos:
Top = Left drum
Bottom = Right drum





LM Cook

Two more photos taken yesterday.

Forgot to note in my previous post ... Each nut fits only on one axle shaft. Both appear to be ANC.

Top = Left splines and chipped collar
Bottom = Axle nuts. ANC has marks on points. Moss is plain.

Lonnie
TF7211




LM Cook

I found another photo from last night. The the right axle shaft.

Lonnie
TF7211

LM Cook

The bottom drum in the first pair of pictures appears to have moderately worn splines. Due to the angle, can't see the other one very well. The chipped collar needs to be replaced, and it appears that movement has been occurring due to the scoring. Both axles appear to have a little wear. One nut appears to be the very early coarse thread. This may indicate an original axle shaft, which is likely nearly twisted off at the other end. I think best to replace both axles and at least the one collar. One of my hub/drums is worn about like yours. New axle shafts tightened the fit somewhat. Instead of grease, I use red Locktite stud and bearing on the splines and sparingly on the collar and torque it down. It has never come loose, and a puller removes the drum when needed. If you can find an unworn hub/drum get one, but good luck...
To pull the axles, remove brake line/parking brake cable, the four bolts, backplate, and then use the drum as a puller as described above. Or carefully take a screwdriver and tap in between the ears at one of the bearing housing bolt holes. Simplest to just get new axles, bearings, seals and the spacer. Keep a spare assembly for road trips or a friend on a road trip. You can tap the new bearing on using a piece of pipe or socket that just slips over the axle shaft and only touches the inner bearing race. Hope this makes sense. George
George Butz III

Lonnie there should be a thick heavy washer for the nut to ride against. Do you have that item? It’s about a 1/4” thick. Your description of clacking while turning suggests that the drum may be sliding in and out on the shaft. If the washer is missing, your likely torque value is occurring as the nut bottoms out on the threads but not actually putting any pressure against the drum.

From what I can see if the axle splines they appear to be serviceable. I can’t really see the drum splines on my device.

Tom, even at 100 ft lbs. the drums shouldn’t be clunking simply pushing the car around the shop floor. That said Lonnie, Tom is correct that the axle nut must be torqued to 150 ft lbs. continuing to the next cotter hole position.

You didn’t identify whether the drips where gear oil or brake fluids. I would replace the collets and the axle seal that is pressed into the bearing retainer as a matter of convenience and preventative maintenance. It only takes the slightest wear groove on the seal area of the collet to have it leak oil on the brake shoes. When in doubt replace them so you don’t have a mess to clean up once you get the car back into service

Bill Chasser
TD-4834


W A Chasser

Good point about the washer. That brings back memory from years ago with a hogged out split collar so the washer was tight, but it bottomed on the axle splines and did not cinch down on the hub. I also say go ahead and pull the axles to check for twist or wear at the inner end. George
George Butz III

If you hit the correct torque but split pin holes do not line up, swap the nuts left for right and try again. It sometimes works, if only slightly out, lightly file the nut face. Mark it so you do not do it again !.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Looking at the axles threads they seem to be well worn. Compare the outer threads with the last threads on the inner portion of threaded area. That inner thread appears tobe much sharper the the balance.
Sandy
Sanders

If the washers are in place, is it possible that the radius relief rings are missing. If in the past the shafts have been replaced they may have been missed.
These are listed by Moss Europe as # 266-020 spacers.
The half shafts have a large radius to prevent failure and the ring is there to seat the bearings.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

> VIDEO
I posted a video on YouTube that shows closeups of my hub and axle. Hope that it gives you info that you can use to diagnose my problem. My statement in the video that there is very little play in the splines is probably wrong. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/2xI4Gar8NdI

I placed and external microphone on top of the outer edge of the rear axle to pick up the "CLACK" sound for the video

===========

Here are answers to some of your questions:

> BEARINGS
I found a post by LaVerne from Jan 2014 (Thread: TF rear wheel bearings) with this info about replacement wheel bearings:
>>>original made in England R & M 35650 MJ 1 1/4
>>>replacement made in Austria Steyr RMS10 (eBay: $52.50 w/shipping)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RMS10-Steyr-New-Single-Row-Ball-Bearing-/153871151162
>>>NAPA replacement GRW 118 ($139.99)
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BRGGRW118?partTypeName=Wheel+Bearing+-+Rear&keywordInput=grw+118+bearing

The Moss bearing is $32.79 + shipping. $24.99 sale ends today, Nov 6, 2020.
https://mossmotors.com/bearing-mainshaft-2?assoc=26711

> THREADS
The threads are damaged enough to prevent switching the nuts from left side to right side.
Both sides appear to be ANC (SAE) threads with 14 TPI that were on axle shafts starting with TD 12285 and continued through TF.
I'll take close up photos and measure the shaft and nuts later today.

> WASHER
Both sides have the thick heavy washer under the nut. The chamfer on the washer is on the nut-side.

> DRIPS
The few drops that fell from the hubs to the wheel rims are a mystery. They ran down the brake backing plate. There are no fluids in the diff or brake lines. Lines and wheel cylinders are new and never filled. Diff was drained a year ago. Fluid was clear with a slight brown tint.

> SPACERS (Moss 266-020)
The U.S. Moss part number is the same as Moss Europe. I will purchase new collars, bearings, spacers, and oil seals. Crossing my fingers that I don't need to replace drums and shafts.

Thanks for your continuing help.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Inner chamfer or outer toward the nuts? The inner has to go toward the axle.
George Butz III

Thanks George. I forgot about the chamfer on one side of the center of the washer.

The washers are on correctly ... chamfer on the hole is toward the axle. Chamfer on the outsider edge is toward the nut.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie, in my opinion, we need to change the conical piece that grips the drum. Make sure that the nut is tightening the drum and not the shaft. This would mean that the washer is not thick enough.
On my drums, I don't have the play you have. But it can easily be removed without forcing. I tighten the nut to 200 newton meters.
Sincerely, Thierry de l'Ardèche, South of France
t Thierry

I am afraid that drum is scrap, at some time the axle nut has been loose. This allows the drum to chatter back and forth which wears out the taper and the splines, then the drum wobbles and the wear increases.
It does not matter how tight you do the nut, the first time you drive it the wear continues.
No new drums available now, so look for somebody converting from disc to wire wheels for replacements.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Lonnie - brilliant video; it truly shows the problem Ray correctly notes above. The nut should always have been torqued to 150#; at some point in the past it wasn't, and the looseness allowed the splines on the drum and the axle to wear against each other, wearing both the axle and the drum. Neither can be saved. (I have found axle nuts that were merely finger-tight, and all associated partrs had to be replaced.)

If you look closely at both sets of splines you can see the matching modified areas where one has moved back and forth on the other, enlarging the fit.

I believe that the general opinion is that the axles and nuts from mgtrepair.net are the very best, once-in-a-lifetime replacements. You will need to find good, used drums; Gary Krukowski has had some in the past. If the wheel studs are the earlier type, you can have yours pressed out and replaced on the "new" drums.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Lonnie, I may have a pair of rear drums. Don't know the condition. I'll take a look and let you know but that may not be til Sunday or Monday.

Jud
J K Chapin

Lonnie, I do have a pair of TD rear drums. I also have the half shafts. I do not know the condition of these items nor am I competent to render an opinion. I do know that the ring and pinion that we took from the rear end was in very good condition.

In addition, I do not know what a fair price would be assuming that they are in good usable condition.

If you are interested and are willing to pay the shipping cost, I'll ship them to you for inspection. If they are good, pay me a fair price. If they are not usable, keep them for your boat but pay me the cost of shipping.

Jud
jchapin3 at aol dot com

ps: There is casting info on the drums but I can't fully make it out. I looks like "LEPAZ" and some numbers. If that has any meaning I can email a non-reduced image and maybe you can make something of it.


J K Chapin

Jud,
I am afraid those are front drums.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

My thanks to the BBS's collective wisdom and help with my hubs and shafts. Problem solved in less than two days! And thanks to Jud Chapin for offering his drums.

I bought new MGT Repair/Dave Clark axles shafts and axle nuts from Tom Lange. Gary Krukoski is supplying two very good hubs/drums. I also bought new collars, spacers, bearings, and seals.

Sections H1, H2, and H3 in the Workshop Manual plus the BBS archives gave me all the info that I needed to remove the axle shafts today. Tom's trick to use the brake drum as a slide hammer worked perfectly. No dripping fluids because I hadn't filled the diff or brake system.

The shafts must have been replaced sometime in the car's history. Both are Borg Warner. The bearings on the shafts are different. I'll know more when I remove the bearing housings.

Thanks again for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211





LM Cook

For future reference, if the brake lines have been correctly routed there is no need to disconnect brake lines. There is enough give to let you hang the back plate up out of the way.
On the same subject, with the plates off, the axle can be manoeuvred left and right and taken out without releasing the springs.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

I don't see how the backing plate can be hung up out of the way without disconnecting the line and removing the straps.

Lonnie
TF7211

LM Cook

Lonnie, try.
youtube.com/watch?v/1MjZuNNk8Z4

watch a load of old farts getting in each others way.
If the link does not work try MG Masterclass.
Ray
Ray Lee

Thanks Ray,

Now I understand how you were able to keep the brake lines in tact. I didn't want to damage my freshly installed straps and lines.

A new rear end in less than five minutes! I'm saving the video to my library. Nice. My TF restoration would be finished and on the road if you guys were helping me.

Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MjZuNNk8Z4

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie, glad you've solved your problem. I don't think anyone can beat Tom for quality and customer service.

Oops!! Of course those are front drums - explains the presence of bearings and lots of grease. I do have a pair of rear drums from the same chassis that you don't need but they are available on the same terms to anyone who might be interested.

Jud

J K Chapin

When Dave Clark built my rear into a 4.1, I had him send me his upgraded axles, he also sent me new bearings and seals. I then ordered new drums front and rear, new brakes, wheel cylinders, actually everything in the system is new including the lines.
It's a shame that TD owners can't buy a complete set of new drums. Would make life a little easier for them.

Can't TF drums be modified to fit TD disk wheels?
PJ Jennings

That would be nice, but the one piece (or early two part) TD/disk wheel TF drum/hubs have the lug nut studs passing through them and are totally different. This was kicked around a few years ago here or on the other board. Abingdon Spares had a few reproductions many years go, but as far as I know those were the only ones. At that time they had a machined steel insert to replace the splines, no clue how well those worked or for how long. George
George Butz III

This thread was discussed between 05/11/2020 and 09/11/2020

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