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MG TD TF 1500 - Autumn Red verification?
| I found the wooden top of a door in a box that came with my latest TD. The car was originally Autumn Red. I assume the wooden door piece has Autumn Red on it. It matches the red traces on the car. So here's a theory I'll throw out for the experts to consider. The variability of monitors, video cards etc. make posting colors on the net problematic. So I took a picture of the door piece and the coke can separately in exactly the same lighting conditions. So my theory is that if you adjust your monitor to match the red of the coke can (everyone has a coke can, right?) the color of the Autumn Red should appear the same as it does in person. What do you think?
Tim TD26711 TD12524 
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| Timothy Burchfield |
| Tim, which car are you talking about? From NEMGTR's "T Type Restoration Handbook, P.47": 12524 has a good chance of having produced during the period when Autumn Red was being used. 26711 was most likely too late. The door color looks a lot more Autumn Red than MG Red. Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| It looks like MG Red on my Ipad. Autumn red is much much darker than Coke Red. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| Spot on David H. I was about to say the same thing ! MG Red on the door wood. One only realises how dark (maroon-burgundy hue) the Autumn Red actually is when they are side by side. Cheers Rob Grantham |
| Rob Grantham |
| Guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. I tend to think of MG Red as being close to the Coke can. I've never had occasion to park my Autumn Red car next to a certified MG Red car to get an image with a color standard in the frame. The Autumn Red that I have is the closest that Sherwinn-Williams (Martin-Senour) could replicate using the paints available in 1988. In 1995 I met up with Stuart Keen and TD10890. His car and mine (Lazarus, TD10855) were virtually identical in color. His was painted from a totally different source. Autumn Red was being used around the time that both cars were being made. Coincidental? Could be. Maroon? Burgandy? How about Cranberry? Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| Bud, the car is a 53. I know that Chris Couper's site says Autumn red was limited to 51 cars. There are three layers of paint, top silver, middle yellow, bottom Autumn Red (IMHO). All I can tell you is that the first color on the car matches that of the door frame in the picture I posted. It looks like the same color I found on my 51.
Dave, did you adjust the color of your monitor to match the color of a coke can. I used a lap top to match the coke can color and the wooden piece then looked like it does in real life. Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| I am confused. In the picture at the top I see three colors: Black primer Red oxide primer MG Red Am I missing something? BTW comparing a picture to a known sample (Coke can) is not a bad way show show relationships and with the exception of lighting conditions from the picture and reality, you could use it to adjust a photo to synchronize a color. MG Red is about the color of blood in your arteries. Autumn Red is more like venus blood. :-) 
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| Christopher Couper |
| Chris, the black primer you mention is actually charred wood. It looks like someone sanded the wood to the point of it getting too hot. Almost like the old wood burning kits. Or perhaps the car caught fire at one point. The red primer color is the remains of something that was glued to the wood piece. I disagree with the red color in my photo being MG Red. It is closer to the Autumn Red you display on your site. It is no way close to the bright red you show in your photo. The bright red in your photo actually looks closer to the coke can color.
Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| MG / Emgee Red is a strange colour indeed - in bright sunlight it does seem much brighter than when not. However, whichever way you look at it, it is darker than Coke red, but nowhere near as dark as Autumn red. I didn't have to adjust the colour of the screen, it looked just right for Coke red. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| I think the door wood looks like MG Red as well. My 51 had good unfaded samples on the inner fenders that had been under coated and it was quite a bit darker. |
| rich40701 |
| Having just had a 1949-1950 Nuffield factory paint chip book in hand to aid in color matching several formulas I can say without a doubt that is not Autumn Red in the OP. Also Chris may have some misinformation regarding color availabilities. Autumn Red was available as early as 1949 when TD production began as was evidenced by the Nuffield chip book. Also some colors were temporarily dropped from production and literature but then came back. The literature never being that up to date. In other words, the colors came, went and came again before the literature could catch up. SSG is one example as said to not be available until ‘52 where I own an original mid ‘51 SSG car ordered in the late first quarter of that year. Autumn Red and Almond Green are two such examples that where available early on, disappeared briefly and then returned.
Bill Chasser TD/c-8151 |
| W A Chasser |
| Well, I'm amazed that anyone would think the color in my original post is MG Red. It has far too much maroon in it to be MG Red. The color I posted is nowhere close to the MG Red on Chris Couper's site (take a look). How about someone take a picture of something painted MG Red and a photo of a coke can in the same lighting conditions and posting it. I think you would find the difference between what I posted and MG Red to be significant. Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| What all this color discussion we have shows is that we really do not now what paints were available and if they really were the only colors that TD's were painted.
We have to many discrepancies to really say that specific colors were all that were available. My Nov 1950 car was green. It was not Almond Green. Which is supposedly the only green available in 50/51 So what green was it? Clausager says there was an MG Green and that he does not feel MG green was Almond Green. No one else has identified an MG Green. I also think it may have been possible to have a TD painted a different color. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| 'I also think it may have been possible to have a TD painted a different color.' At the risk of hijacking this discussion I believe that the same comment also applies to the body/trim combination. For example evidence does exist that shows TC's at any rate were imported into Sydney in the ivory/beige combination, a combo that was NOT supposed to be available ex factory. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| The reality is that the paints were available over a fairly extended period, and were used for a range of Nuffield cars (plus some othe marques as well, like Hillman). Because they were available, does not mean that you could have your brand new MG or any other marque painted in any particular colour you preferred, you had to choose from the colour range available for that Marque and Model, that year. The paints remained available over an extended period so that bodywork repairs, etc., could be carried out.
Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| Many cars had paint work at the selling dealer when new to correct poor workmanship at the factory and damage in transit. It was not uncommon to repaint whole cars, often changing color to make the car more attractive for sale, or to satisfy a new customer's preference. There were many cars bought new not wearing the color they left the factory with. My 1949 TC left the factory with ivory paint, but was painted black by the selling dealer when new. |
| D. Sander |
| I'm sure that is true, particularly in the USA, however a repaint in a non-original manufacturers colour remains a non-original colour, even if done before the first sale. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| Found a paint article in the June 1996 The Sacred Octagon magazine. The article by Hal Kramer has additional information on colors and years when they were available.
I cant post it due to copyright, but you can request a copy from TSO. http://www.nemgtr.org/our-magazine/the-sacred-octagon.html Hal identifies a two tone green MG TD as "MG Green", but does not have any information on the formula. He lists only MG Red and Autumn Red for the TD. He gives the following PPG codes (dont know if they are still active codes) MG Red PPG T1993 Autumn Red |
| Bruce Cunha |
| TIM COME UP TO MICHIGAN AND SEE MY CAR. FRONT BODY IS OFF AND PLENTY OF NON EXPOSED AUTUMN RED PAINT IS EVIDENT. ENGINE IS GOING IN NEXT WEEK |
| colin stafford |
| I'm no Coke fan, but here is a shot I took earlier showing the factory paint from the blind side of our spare TD fuel tank. May look a bit darker in the flesh. Matthew. 
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| M Magilton |
| Colin, I'd love to but being an Ohio State graduate I'm forbidden by the terms of my degree to travel to that State up North. :-) Thanks for the offer. Any chance you could snap a picture with some known color (e.g. coke can)? Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| Matthew, I'd say that panel color in your picture looks a lot like the red in my picture in the OP. Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| My Riley (that came out of the Abingdon factory alongside MG TDs in 1950)was originally painted Autumn Red. MG and Riley used to share a lot of their colours. Where I've still got traces of the original colour it's the same colour as Matthew's tank. Even in wet old Blighty where the sun rarely shines, reds, maroons etc fade like mad, which is why my old jalopy was re-painted black in the first couple of years of its life. |
| Peter Allen |
| Peter, although my 51 TD was originally Autumn Red I too painted it black. I found that I really didn't like any of the depictions of the original Autumn Red. I do find those who have painted their cars a slightly brighter shade of Autumn Red have done a beautiful job with them. Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| I've been following this thread closely. I hope to start restoration of my TF (HDC46 / 7211) next month. It includes changing the current tan upholstery to red which it had when it left Abingdon. And of course, a new red paint job.
I have two problems before I even get to an accurate portrayal of the original red color that you are discussing. 1) The new Moss red upholstery may not be the same as the original red. Therefore it may clash with the original red paint color. I may need to tweak the paint to complement the interior color. 2) "Experts" differ on the original red color on TFs. TFs were the first T-car to display a paint code on the number plate. "C" was red. > AUTUMN RED June 1996 TSO states that TFs were painted Autumn red. The MGCC register calls the TF color "Dark Red" which often describes Autumn Red. > MG RED The TF sales brochure on Chris Couper's site lists the color as MG Red, but the color can't be confirmed by the sample on the brochure. Malcolm Green states that TFs were painted MG Red and confirms it with the BMC code RD14. === I know that modern paint that is mixed by using the original codes will produce a color that differs from the original color. However, using internet sources - this is the process that I used to learn the relative difference between MG Red and Autumn Red before this thread started. The internet representations on screen appear darker than your samples. >> MG Red (Emgee Red): Also known as Carmine Red and Regency Red PPG 71993 BMC RD14 Modern BMC name = Reno Red Close match = Madder Red – PPG 71993 (1972-82 General Motors Luv trucks) New PPG Code = ARGRD14 Modern representation of PPG 71993: http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?comm=71993&page=1&rows=50&size=large Here is information based on HTML code of a screen shot of paintref 71993: http://www.beautycolorcode.com/69100F Paintref results for "MG Red" (The clickable link doesn't work. You must copy-and-paste this link to see MG Red) http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?comm=MG+Red&rows=50&button=Search >> Autumn Red: Also known as Dark Red PPG 50930 BMC RD6 Modern BMC name = Autumn Red Close match = Burgundy – PPG 50930 (1974-1975 Opel) New PPG code N/A Modern representation of PPG 50930: http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?comm=50930&page=1&rows=50&size=large Here is information based on HTML code of a screen shot of paintref 50930: http://www.beautycolorcode.com/3b1418 Paintref results for "Autumn Red" (The clickable link doesn't work. You must copy-and-paste this link to see Autumn Red) http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?comm=Autumn+Red&rows=50&button=Search >> MG colors on Paintref. Nothing before 1959 http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?make=MG Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| I wouldn't believe all of what is written on the internet about paint colours, and even the usual MG reference books are not 100% reliable. MG /Emgee Red, Reno Red, Carmine Red, Regency Red, etc., might be very broadly similar, but they are not the same, each shade is distinct and has a different pigment recipe. MG Red is a dark red, though it certainly brightens up in broad daylight. Autumn Red is a very dark red. Most of the images I have seen above look more like MG Red on my IPad. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| SHAME ON YOU TIM, WE WON'T PAINT YOUR CAR GREEN/WHITE OR BLUE/YELLOW. I WILL ENDEAVOUR TO GET SOME COMPUTER SCANS OFF OF SOME PANEL SECTIONS. PLUS SEND YOU SOME GOOD COLOUR PIX OF UNEXPOSED AREAS. THIS COLOUR HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BONE OF CONTENTION WITH THE MG COMMUNITY. I THINK OUR CAR IS ONE OF A FEW THAT STILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL PAINT JOB. IT IS GOING TO STAY THAT WAY. |
| colin stafford |
| Colin, if my car was painted Green and White or Blue and Yellow up there I'd have to leave it there. It is said that Woody Hayes once ran out of gas in Michigan near the Ohio border. Rather than buy gas in the State up North he pushed his car across the state line into Ohio. Thanks in advance for the pictures. Well done on keeping your car original. Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| Again,Dave Hill is correct in his summation of MG Red. TFs were originally painted MG Red,not the much, much darker Autumn Red. Matt. Magilton
has a photo of an untouched TF in Australia and it sure is nothing like Autumn Red. Rod Bradshaw from NZ has restored thirty one(31) TFs over many years. He has not seen an original TF in Autumn Red yet. Colin S.,if your TF was lined up against an Autumn Red car, you would possibly be amazed how much lighter your HDC TF is. You have a nice colour in MG Red imho. Cheers Rob Grantham |
| Rob Grantham |
Tim and Colin, Check out the Florida Gator TD! I have seen this in person. Tim, of course you now have our old coach- good luck with that! George
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| George Butz III |
| George, we are pretty happy with your old coach. Can't say I'm a fan of the TD colors in your photo (or the Gators) :-) But MG obviously favored the Buckeyes. They painted some TD's OSU colors at the factory, Silver Streak gray with red interior. Tim 
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| Timothy Burchfield |
| My cousin has a TF that she has had she was around 16, she is now mid 60's. Years ago they painted it the Miami Dolphins colors. Next time I am over there I will see if she will take me to the building where it is stored and get a pic. The car hasn't been driven in years but is all original and in good condition except for the crazy colors. |
| rich40701 |
About 50 or so years ago my 55 TF was in a wreck, after fixing it up for some reason they painted it green. Here's a pic of the original MG red behind the running board. Incidentally, that is the only rust spot I found on the car! PJ
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| PJ Jennings |
| I know I don't have the formulae for MG Red, But here is my version of five MG Reds in one picture. Cheers, Byron. 
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| JB Warwick |
| Byron, Now that's what I call a great photo! But, I counted 6! LOL. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| Here is the car that Rob mentioned. Factory paint. There is also the untouched original in Gallery on Chris Coupers site. Matthew. 
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| M Magilton |
| Here are photos of Colin Stafford's car that he kindly provided some time ago. Without getting too hung up on names, it looks like all the untouched TF's that I can find were the same shade. Matthew. 
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| M Magilton |
| Matt., Thankyou for your as usual spot on input to TF MG Red. TDs may have had both Autumn Red and MG Red as a colour option, not TFs. Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| Rob Grantham |
| Here are three TFs at Bronte, Ontario British Car Show. From top to bottom TF 2303, My car TF 2302, and My first MG (!959to1964) 4608. Cheers, Byron. 
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| JB Warwick |
| Byron: You left the car out in your count. :-) BTW you have a very nice looking TF and the other 5 look good too. |
| Christopher Couper |
This thread was discussed between 06/04/2018 and 16/04/2018
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