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MG TD TF 1500 - Battery explosion

It was a beautiful Fall day for a cruise in the country with our British Car Club. About a half hour into the cruise I heard a loud "pop". It was loud enough that the driver of a TR-4 two cars behind me heard it also. I felt no loss of power, ammeter and oil gauge was normal. About 30 seconds latter smoke was coming out of the bonnet vents. By the time I pulled over flames were coming out. Luckily a fire extinguisher was handy. Haggerty had it towed to my house. I'm waiting for an adjuster. Top of the battery is gone wires burned including those going to the transistorized voltage regulator. Engine looks OK. Any idea what could have caused this?





Bob McLeod TD 5618

I'll guess - voltage regulator fault causing overcharging of the battery and the generation of hydrogen gas, combined with spark generation that caused ignition and an explosion.. If not this, then a massive short.
Dave H
Dave Hill

What Dave says. If over charging severly you would normally smell hydrogen sulfide long before an explosion. What type of battery and did you have any kind of false cover over it?
L E D LaVerne

Beware of sulphuric acid when handling any part of the car in the vicinity of the battery. You can neutralise it safely with a mild alkali such a washing or baking soda.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Are you running the standard fuel pump? If so, that could be the source for a spark.

Sorry to see the damage, glad you are ok.
Bruce Cunha

Photos rotated correctly. This issue often happens with cell phone photos.






John Quilter (TD8986)

I would be surprised that hydrogen would be so dense to ignite with a spark when driving.

Laurent.
LC Laurent31

It doesn't seem likely to have enough of a build-up of gasses in an engine bay, with air rushing through and heat pushing its way out, to cause an explosion from something like the fuel pump. My first guess would be over-charging from a faulty voltage regulator. Of course I'm only guessing. An examination of the battery should show if it exploded from inside, or if the fire started externally and melted the top off.

Sorry to see the damage but kudos for reacting quickly and saving the car.
Steve Simmons

The battery is a standard 12 volt that I bought from Autozone about two years ago. There was no cover over the battery. The car is a positive ground. The fuel pump I had transistorized about 7-8 years ago. Attached is a picture of the voltage regulator that has been in for a couple years. I drive at least once a month and have had no problems up into now.




Bob McLeod TD 5618

Well, not much you can do with an electronic conversion other than test it, and if bad throw it away. I would definitely put a meter on it before driving the car again.
Steve Simmons

Bad business.

My thoughts is a dead short across the battery. If it occurred in the regulator there would be distinct evidence of blown components.

I dont believe the generator has the capacity to over charge the battery to the degree to cause a battery to explode.

Isolate the solid state regulator, separate the charred wiring and use a Megger to test all wiring for a short to earth before proceeding.

Graeme
G Evans

Transistor fuel pump. You have thrown water on my reasoning.
Bruce Cunha

Further to my previous post, is there any chance the battery clamp came loose and lodged across the battery terminals?

Graeme
G Evans

I find it interesting that the wires to the voltage regulator have their insulation burnt off but there is no evidence (ie blistered paint) in the same area.

I can see blistered paint on the hood and the soot from the louvers but I would suspect we should see blistered paint around the VR too.

This leads me to believe a massive short somewhere that caused all the circuits to overload.

It would be interesting to see where else the insulation has burnt off of the wires. The back of the ammeter is the first place I would look too.
Christopher Couper

Just heard from the insurance company. They said it was a total loss. They will be sending an email with my options. I didn't think it was that bad.
Bob McLeod TD 5618

It is only a "write off (total loss)" because the major part of the cost to repair is labour and there is so much unknown as to the extent of damage they want to avoid a cost blowout.

I would be claiming the wreck and taking a cash payout from the insurers and fixing it myself (outsourcing the paintwork though). It will take time, but the car will be back on the road in a year or so, depending on how hard you work and the daily hours you can put in.

Cheers to the person who carried the extinguisher and knew how to use it - they did good work !.

Good Luck

Tony
The Classic Workshop
Black Mountain
Australia
A L SLATTERY

That is surprising for Hagerty. That is far from a totaled car. Even with a new wiring harness, new battery, new regulator, and paint, I cant see that being 5 to 6 thousand.

Even if the hood was not reparable. The most I see for a full hood (all 4 pieces) is around &600 with shipping. Others a lot less.
Bruce Cunha

Agreed. A TD in good condition should be worth a minimum of $12-15K and that would be a lot of repair work so why the totaled determination.
John Quilter (TD8986)

It's very important that you tell them to not report it as total loss or issue a salvage title. Once they do, you can't reverse it. Tell them to pay the agreed value and you will fix it yourself, and retain a clean title. Even if you don't want to fix it yourself, it will be worth more with a clean title.
Steve Simmons

I totally agree. While a salvage title may not be as much of an issue for a TD as it is for a newer car, if you can avoid it getting a salvage title, I would try to go that way.
Bruce Cunha

Well good luck with that thought. I have never had insurance company not report a car as totaled after determining that it was. That’s a liability issue for the insurer. Doesn’t hurt to at least try but doubt they will be accommodating to the request. Good luck.
W A Chasser

They are not legally allowed to total the car and report to the DMV without your permission. But they will do it anyway, and once done it cannot be undone. So you have to tell them right off the bat that you are NOT authorizing them to total the car. The only way they can do it is if you give them permission, which also means you sign the car over to them in exchange for full value payment. In the case of our cars, you are accepting full payment AND are buying the car back from them to repair yourself (or more accurately refunding them the value of the wrecked vehicle from what they paid you). The car belongs to you, and they cannot just claim it and tell the DMV to change the registration status. But of course there is no protection for us to enforce this, which is why we have to be diligent.

One of my classics was hit once, and the insurance company sent it to the total loss department without my permission. I was lucky to catch them before they reported the total to the DMV. They marked it as owner repair / no salvage title and thank goodness I got my car back with a nice fat check for repairs. This was not a classic car insurer, it was a standard policy for a daily driver. Classic insurers should be much easier to deal with.
Steve Simmons

I really appreciate all the input. Tomorrow I'm taking some photos to the local shop the specializes in LBC's and see if he can give me a "ball park" guess. I should hear from Haggerty on Monday or Tuesday. I'll go from there.

Bob
Bob McLeod TD 5618

I’m curious why I see this car already on an insurance auction list to be sold on Tuesday Dec 8, 2020. Seems Bob already gave up on the car? Looks to be an easy fixer. New wiring harness, battery, firewall sundries, maybe a starter and dynamo, bonnet repaint, and detailing. Seems like a fairly easy winter project
W A Chasser

I didn’t see your post Bob. But your car is being sold on the 8th according to an auction announcement. So what’s up?
W A Chasser

An auction? That's news to me! It's still in my garage and I haven't received anything from Haggerty except a phone call last Friday.
Bob McLeod TD 5618

Mr. Chasser, looks like a scam. What was the auction site?
Bob McLeod TD 5618

CoPart which is a nationwide insurance loss auction site. Pics are of the car in a garage and of the blown up battery area are used to post the sale notice. I’d send you my auction notice but I deleted it

Lot# 58351860
Located in NC.
Salvage title
Item not in yard until sold.

It appears Hagarty already has totaled the car and is not informing you of their decision on the matter. CoPart wouldn’t be listing without someone’s authorization.


Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

https://abetter.bid/en/58351860-1951-mg-td
L E D LaVerne

WOW! I haven't even heard from Haggerty and they are auctioning it off?
Bob McLeod TD 5618

I find this quite concerning as I have both my 53 TD and 67 Camaro insured with Haggerty. Bob, please keep us updated on how all this plays out. I can't see how this can be released for auction without you accepting their offer and check.
Bill TD-24570
Bill Brown

I just switched to Hagerty. Having second thoughts! Bud
Bud Krueger

I’d be having a conversation right quick.
W A Chasser

IMHO, I can't see how an auction house can sell a vehicle without a title in hand. The money involved is too small for a company like Hagerty to risk their reputation on.

Bill TD-24570
Bill Brown

Once again I can't stress enough how much time is of the essence. I would call immediately to put a stop to this if it isn't too late. Threaten legal action if you have to. This is your property.
Steve Simmons

Make sure you mention to Hagerty that you communicate with a lot of classic car owners that use Hagerty.

If this is true and they do not immediately correct it, I would also consider changing my policy to another insurance company
Bruce Cunha

Site says "sale is over". Bud
Bud Krueger

I just sent this to Hagerty:
A fellow MGTD enthusiast, Bob McLeod in North Carolina, had his MGTD damaged by a battery explosion a couple of weeks ago. You totaled the car. He has been conversing with you about acquiring the car, without a salvage title, so that he can repair it.
About an hour ago, through an enthusiasts' forum, I learned that the cat has been put up for auction, without his having been informed about it!!

Is that standard Hagerty policy?
Makes me wonder if switching to you was such a good idea.

Bud
Bud Krueger

Thanks Bud, good idea as I'm sure many other classic owners share the same concern.
Bill TD24570
Bill Brown

I called Hagerty.

If they cannot determine a Salvage Value of the damaged car, they will put it up for Auction to determine that value.
Not a real Auction. They agree that without a title they could not do this.

In NC they pay 75% of the agreed Value LESS the salvage value, however you can add a rider to the policy called "Cherrised Value Policy Rider".

This allows you to keep the totaled car without paying, the salvage value.
I added it to mine. $17 in NJ for My 52TD valued at $18500. $7 for the remainder of the year, until March.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

I won’t ever use Hagerty Insurance after they issued coverage for my ivory car. They ended up denying the policy because the car was stored in a locked trailer that has both hitch and wheel locks, is sitting behind a locked gate at my residence less than 10 feet from my bedroom window protected by security cameras and lighting. They wanted it in a garage with a flimsy overhead door as the only separation between a car thief and my prized possession. It also carries the added risk of the car being consumed in a house fire. Hagarty can go kick rocks.

So I added it to my State Farm multi vehicle policy with a 100% stated value replacement and a $1 buy back. Yes it’s more expensive than Hagarty but I get a low mileage discount and they don’t have a problem with how I secure my car.

Certainly Hagerty’s tactics are suspect. A three hour bidding session on an obscure listing certainly is not a fair market value for any car. Especially when the bidding is for salvage and not a driving undamaged vehicle.

The stress put upon the OP by Hagerty is despicable
That’s my two cents worth.
W A Chasser

Great information Jim, I will also make this change to my Hagerty policy. I guess it pays to read the fine print that's so small its unreadable.
Bill TD-24570
Bill Brown

Hmm... even more photos of the car on this site.

https://bid.cars/en/lot/1-58351860/1951-MG-TD-
Kevin McLemore

I had an agreed value policy with Hagerty when my TC was totaled. The adjuster had me evaluate the damage and based on my report, totaled it. I never surrendered the title and bought the car back from Hagerty for the salvage value (about $1700). I was very happy with them...be even happier if I’d ever finish rebuilding the car 😀.
Gene Gillam

Hopefully, I've attached a pdf copy of a Hagerty page called Hagerty Policy Highlights. The last Option on the page is called 'Cherished Salvage: Payment for Guaranteed Value (less any deductible) and the vehicle is returned, with no deduction for salvage [Not available in all states.]

No mention of title. Bud
Bud Krueger

Well, that's interesting. No sooner did I post the link to that auction (with the more photos) than it has now disappeared with the following banner header:

"You are watching archived offer. Auction ended on Tuesday, December 8, 2020."

Today?!
Kevin McLemore

Ok, here is the rest of the story. Haggerty put it up for auction to establish salvage value. They sent me an offer today. A check for what I had it insured for and they would pick it up. Or a check for the insured value less salvage value. Financially, keeping the car is the best option. I feel like I can sell it for more than salvage fairly easily.
Bob McLeod TD 5618

If I may ask ...What was the high bid since that is what they consider salvage value(?). Given the “sale” only lasted 3 hrs and wasn’t openly advertised to the public I think whatever they considered was very short sighted. Personally, I think it’s a sh- - ty way to conduct business and it hurts the insured and definitely favors the insurer. Hagerty likely gets away offering you a lowball offer and your car still gets a salvage title. That alone affects any future resale value.
W A Chasser

Prior to actually calling Hagerty, I had sent them an e-mail asking for an IMMEDIATE explanation and suggesting I, for one, would change carriers.

This is the reply I got this PM.

Jim,

Thanks for reaching out.

I am not sure if Bob explained to you or not but the vehicle will not be sold. Our insureds always have the option of keeping it. This quasi auction process allows us to provide the owner with a real market value for the vehicle in its damaged state. Classic vehicles can be challenging to obtain an accurate “salvage” value and this quasi auction allows us to do that in a fair and accurate manner.

We will reach out to make sure Bob understands and will help him through this process.

Kind regards,
David





David Deneau
Assistant Manager of Claims
office: +1.231.929.6091
hagerty.com ddeneau@hagerty.com

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

Here is my thought process. Before the fire the car was a easy 14-15,000 dollar car, more if I held out. The local LBC shop ball parked the turnkey repair, parts and shop labor at 4-5,000 dollars.

Haggerty offered me $16,000 and they take the car. Or I keep the car with a salvage title and they deduct the salvage value of $2,500.

I would really prefer to loose the car and buy something that better fits my post-retirement wide-body. So do I take the money and run, buy the car and part it out on ebay, or try to sell it for $5 or 6,000?

Your thoughts?
Bob McLeod TD 5618

Take the offer, keep the car and sell it. A salvage title means very little for a TD. It is not like you can't see what the damage is.

Yes, it may affect the resale value later, but again, if you are buying a TD, you probably don't care what the title is.
Bruce Cunha

Can you still get full coverage on a salvage title vehicle?

Just curious.
G D

When I insured my 5 cars with Hagerty a number of decades ago I don't recall them ever asking me if any of the cars had salvage titles (they don't) they just wanted photos of the cars to see their condition. But they have not asked for any recent photos. You have to provide the VIN, so do they check with the state it is registered in to see if it is a salvage title?
John Quilter (TD8986)

I would think if the regulator caused this it would also be fried. Agree with the comment above that the dynamo output wouldn't be enough, and that there was a big and dead short somewhere- starter switch or something like that. Part it out? Terrible idea- otherwise nice looking car. The only thing I would have to farm out is the paint work. Easy to fix the rest. Did you look under the dash for any melted wiring there? George
George Butz III

George, damage seems to be confined to the area around the battery. No burnt wires under the dash. Under the charred voltage regulator cover the transistorized unit looks fine.
Bob McLeod TD 5618

FYI, I received the same message from David Deneau at Hagerty yesterday. The Salvage Title really needs to be resolved. In some states the vehicle can not be licensed. Bud
Bud Krueger

IN Ohio, if the vehicle is considered salvage and then repaired, it will need to be inspected and if it passes it will get a rebuilt title.
Bill TD-24570
Bill Brown

I would check with No.Carolina DMV regulations on the Salvage Title issue. If the regulation is much like Ohio as Bill Brown posted, your decision should be easier.

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
Gary Hansen

Once again, Haggerty cannot legally instruct the DMV issue a salvage title if you don't authorize it. Make sure they understand that you want to keep and repair it. The salvage title will greatly reduce the value, because a lot of buyers are unaware and therefore wary of the legality of buying a car with such a title. The best thing to do if you don't want to repair would be to keep the car, with clean title, and then sell it to another enthusiast. Then use the insurance money plus sale money to replace it. You will likely make a profit this way.
Steve Simmons

Bob.
Did you ever live in JACKSONVILE?
dO YOU REMEMBER CHICKEN ON THE GRILL?
sANDY
Sanders

Sandy, I have only lived in North Carolina (Wilmington) and Illinois (Western suburbs of Chicago).

Bob
Bob McLeod TD 5618

This thread was discussed between 26/11/2020 and 17/12/2020

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