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MG TD TF 1500 - Body Tie Bar repair

Good day to all,
I have a question about the design of the body tie bar across the middle of the body/frame. The back edge of the tie bar appears to be straight and right angle to the frame. The tie bar then angles toward the front of the car before tying at the door hinge pillar.

The angle of the tie bar where it attaches to the hinge pillar is not the same on the right and the left. The right angles out about 3/16" from rear arrow to front arrow (see photo). The left side angles out about 1/2" at same measuring points.

The car clearly had a left side, front collision during a PO, because there is minor hidden damage along the left side. A PO collision repair did a very poor vertical weld all along the left side at the yellow arrow, which I have removed but not rewelded yet.

Does anyone know what the angle of the body tie bar at the hinge pillar is? I know the latch pillar is 90 degrees to the main rail. Is the body tie bar where it attaches to the door hinge pillar parallel to the centerline of the car, or does it angle out slightly. IF SO HOW MUCH? I believe it angles out slightly, but since the doors are curved, I am not sure what data helps. I could just match the right side, since it does not appear to have been damaged in the past.

Advice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Jim TD17744


JV Smith TD17744

I don't know if this helps but there is a pretty comprehensive chassis/frame diagram in the back of the workshop manual. maybe that shows the angles.

Jud
J K Chapin

Thanks Jud,
I sent that diagram to the frame guy when I had the frame checked out. I just looked at it again. I didn't find the tie bar on a diagram.
Jim
JV Smith TD17744

I just checked mine. It is about a half-inch from the metal of the door opening to the brace on both sides top and bottom.




Bruce Cunha

Bruce,
I think we are talking about two different things. What I am trying to figure out is the angle of the extension that attaches to the door hinge pillar.

The left side angle is different than the right side, causing the left side to angle out more. On new photo it shows the body tie bar with it's long flange directly across the car (line 1). Then there are two angles (bends) in the sheet metal that angle the tie bar so that it attaches to the hinge pillar at the correct position (line 2) and angle. The problem is that I don't know what the two angles should be because mine are not the same on each side. In theory, my problem would cause the left door to angle out further than the right. And I know that the car was wrecked on the left side, so I am assuming that the left is wrong.

The other clarifying question is: Should line 2 be parallel to the corresponding line on the right side, making the door pillars parallel to each other? (I don't think so. I think they should both angle out slightly).

Jim


JV Smith TD17744

If I can find my compass tomorrow I will measure the two tie bars I have that have been removed from tubs. Neither have been damaged. In any event the angle will have to be such that the tie bar can be riveted into the wheel arches. FYI I got the rivets from FTFU and they can be hammered tight while cold. If you would like a complete replacement I have one available. Contact me via the link above

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Thanks Bill,
The angles will help so much. At that point I can decide if I need to replace. It doesn't seem like it is unrepairable, I just wasn't sure where I was trying to go.

Since you are measuring angles, are the angles the same at the top and bottom? If they are, then the hinge pillars are vertical. If not, the pillars flare out slightly at the top. It seems to me that the pillars should be vertical in both planes.

Thanks for the rivet info from FTFU. I wasn't sure where I was going to get them yet.

Jim
JV Smith TD17744

Rather than finding what is “correct' and making the car fit, I would line everything up, check the door fitment and only weld the cross brace when everything fits well. I am a little OCD, I always try to match the left and right sides so they are the same. This is attached to the inner fenders with four 1/4” rivets.
The “correct” alignment is the one that fits.
Just my $.02
Be well,
David.
D. Sander

Jim. I’m sorry. I have been unable to find my protractors but it wouldn’t help any way as the tie bar I have available has been damaged and any measurement I could give you would be suspect. The sheetmetal is rather flimsy. If the tub is together sans the tie bar I would suggest you simply clamp it to the wheel arches and tack weld it to the pillar bracket Just be sure to align the holes Again sorry I couldn’t be of more help.
W A Chasser

Thanks David and Bill,
I am also a little OCD also on this project, primarily because it is my first. Since I know the left side was damaged due to poor welds visible, that side was suspect. The confusing part is that all of the remaining welds on that side appear to be solid and original, so the tie bar overall is pretty stiff. So it is difficult to pull the pillar bracket in to match the right side.

Without more information, I am beginning to think the manufacturing process was variable in this area. Since they built each one by hand, if these pillar brackets were not exactly at the same angle, maybe it wouldn't matter to the final outcome. Right now I am only working on the left side, with the right side still in it's original configuration.

I believe that you both gave basically the same advice. Put it together, make sure all of the holes line up, and then tack weld.

Thanks for your help,
Jim
JV Smith TD17744

Sorry Jim. I was looking at your second arrow. My angles are not the same from side to side, but my car also has had damage and repair in that area.
Bruce Cunha

Ok,
I just looked closely again to the factory tub assembly photo in Horst's book. It looks like the assembly jig has a wing at the top of the hinge pillar that positions the HINGE SIDE of the hinge pillar perpendicular to the centerline of the car. Do you think it's possible that the jig sets this position and then the back of the hinge pillar is adjusted to fit the tie bar?

If the angle of this picture is not misleading, then the hinge side of the hinge pillars are at right angles to the centerline of the car and therefore the doors on the right and left side are parallel as they come off of the hinges, then curving toward the front.

If that is true, then my question is answered. I only need to make sure the hinge side of the pillars are straight.

Does this make sense, or am I driving everyone crazy?

Thanks,

Jim


JV Smith TD17744

The hinge pillar sets at 90° on both the for and aft & left to right axis. Is that what your really asking asking about?

The tie bar is so flimsy it’ll conform to what ever you do with it. It gets its rigidity once it is riveted into the wheel arches, screwed into the hinge pillar and finally when the boot floor is installed
W A Chasser

Bill,
Yes, I agree, both the fore and aft and the side to side are 90 degrees. If fore and aft is the "X" axis and the side to side is the "Y" axis, I think I am talking about the "Z" axis. Maybe my dilemma can be described as rotational. Is the front face of the hinge pillar 90 degrees to the longitudinal centerline of the car?

Jim
JV Smith TD17744

This thread was discussed between 29/03/2021 and 05/04/2021

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