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MG TD TF 1500 - Bowden control needed.

I’m looking for one of these Bowden controls. I suspect those in the UK will have a better chance of having one or knowing someone’s that does. I suspect these where used as throttle controls on two man chainsaws, lawnmowers and garden tillers, bicycle gear changers, motorcycle compression releases. Uses multi strand cable like our starter and choke pulls.




W A Chasser

More pics




W A Chasser

Bowden was a UK company that is no longer in business m

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151




W A Chasser

Bill,
Try scottparts.co.uk
They sell Doherty replica levers which are similar. They are well made, I use them on my BSA A7SS
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

On pushbikes ,they would be the old frame mounted levers--they came sided L--R
I'll have a look tomorrow and see what I've got stashed away- The bicycle units have a clutch in them so that the lever stays where you set it---can I ask what you're going to use him for-
William Revit

Ray, Thank you for the link. I will see what they offer.

William, I’m re-constructing a remote ignition control.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

t
Theirs have a friction clutch built in. On m/cycles there is so much vibration that the choke would close or the ignition adv/ret would wander about. For non motorcyclists you retard the ignition before kicking it over,a 500 cc single could break your ankle if it kicks back.Don't ask me how I know.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

A friend of mine found that out on his Velocette single!
Which made me briefly look up the Velo advance / retard lever and it looks pretty much like the type required.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Bill
Had a good search in the cupboard and came up with nothing helpful really- I did find a pair of vintage Suntour bicycle gear changers but they don't have a fitting for the outer cable just the inner, the outer was held in a separate bracket further down the frame- I was sure I had one just like in your pics, Used it as a thumb brake lever on the track bike for training on the road but it must have still been on the bike when it went
Here's a couple of pics of the Suntour ones but yeah nowhere to mount the outer cable and probably would be a shame to go doctoring them being a bit rare as they are---so really I'm not much help to you apart from ,thanks for letting me clean my cupboard up a bit--lol

willy





William Revit

In the very early 70s I had a rear-engined Renault with. 750cc engine. The choke and spark advance levers were located either side of the handbrake on the floor.

The spark advance used a stiff cable to move the distributor. Always at min advance for start, once you were cruising (in a 750cc vehicle) you advanced the spark.

The 50s Puegoets had a column mounted version.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

William. Thank you for your efforts.

I have looked at several links that were mentioned. One appears to have exactly what I’m looking for but is in need of major restoration and is quite pricey. Another site has reproductions made by Doherty that appear to be good copies of the Bowden piece I’m looking for and is very reasonably priced but of course doesn’t have the Bowden manufacturing Mark which I feel is important for an accurate restoration. There appears to be one on eBay in OZ or Tasmania I don’t remember. Also in rough shape and rather pricey.but consistent with the first website I mentioned. Whether the prices are realistic to their value or speculative IDK. I may have to bite the bullet if I want the correct maker’s mark. I might purchase a Bowden and a Doherty and see how similar they in fact are. I may be able to get away with swapping the Bowden cover plate onto the the Doherty saving the cost of a full restoration on an original item. I then need to source cables, ferrules and the hardware for the cables to attach onto the distributor/magneto clamps. The TC micro adjuster clamp and base appear to be what I need at the distributor/magneto end with the deletion of the vernier and its attachment points. I need to look at detailed drawings that someone had supplied to me a few years ago to verify the geometry is correct. If it isn’t the same then I’ll fabricate new pieces based on the “blue prints” in my archives. Either way I’m closer to having a working remote ignition advance mechanism that is one of those unobtainium and rarely seen pieces listed in the parts manual

I want to credit Mike Spencer for the photos above. This rare piece is from his factory supported early MKII race car which was well documented back in the day and is currently undergoing a full restoration. Details of this car can be seen in the Dec 1950 Auto Sport magazine.

This is going to be my winter project and I’ll post my progress here as I get further along.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Bill - you say "...for an accurate restoration..." I don't think we have any idea what the original looked like, and doubt it included a motorcycle choke cable and mechanism.

Perhaps you have seen one, but despite repeated postings and questions, I have still never seen or heard of anyone having a factory distributor control, in a Mark II or any other T-series car. The only one anyone has reported is the one you are attempting to copy, but both ends of that seem home-made, and nothing the factory would make.

It's so puzzling - the factory parts manual clearly lists it as an available option, yet none has ever been seen. Surely some rally car in the UK has one on the dash still - but where?

Another puzzler, I am afraid.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Sturmey Archer used 3 (4,5) speed lever controls with Bowden cables, whether a vintage lever could be adapted(?). - http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/


Willy,
blimey, SunTour downtube levers not seen them since at least the early 80s, long forgotten by most over here. IIRC they were copies of the expensive Campagnolo. In the UK at the time Shimano were the cheap ones and SunTour were the ones to have if you couldn't afford Campag.

Friction hold by turning the screw, no click setting for gear selection you had to feel when the chain dropped on to the cog and pull and push the lever a bit if you got it wrong.

You could then get a set of six rear cogs that took the same space as standard five set but needed a thinner chain. Six at the back and three at the front meant a lot of movement for the SunTour friction levers and more frequent tightening, but not too tight or they'd jam.

Nigel Atkins

Not much help, but --- a number of years ago we had a regular poster who had a distributor control on his car. I can't remember his name (not unusual at my age) but I think he was from central Europe. I'll try going back in my 200*'s archives and sere if I can find him. Name was somewhat unique.
Eureka! it was Denis (sp) Baggi!! But, I think that he died in 2013. Might be something that I can find in the archives. Bud
Bud Krueger

Tom, I don’t know why this controller is so hard for you to take seriously? Just because it doesn’t fit your understanding doesn’t make it incorrect. After all MG didn’t manufacture many of the parts that went into their automobiles but used outside sources. Dunlop wheels & tires hoses, rubber parts and seat squabs, Andre, Andrex, Armstrong & Girling dampers, Lucas electrical components, Girling, Lockheed and Ferado brake components, Jaeger gauges, bolts from various manufacturers and the list could go on throughout MGs history. So why is it so hard for you to accept that a magneto/air controller used for a different application would be sourced as well. There is no need to reinvent the wheel if a given part suits a particular job. If this was a modern piece or it came from China I would certainly be suspicious.

Have you ever taken the time to read the AutoSport article or study the photographs in depth? The car Mike owns was originally photographed in July or August of 1950 if I remember what Mike had mentioned to me in conversation. The car left the factory in June 1950. and was driven by Dick Jacobs. The car was equipped at that time with many items that appear in subsequent parts lists but are rarely if never seen. Vented front brakes, oil temp gauge, bucket seats, ignition advance, even a dual gauge ( long before it became a standard production item) the period pictures and the article don’t lie, and neither does the factory parts list as to their availability. I don’t know where you would readily see another car with such pedigree except for the other two “works” cars. These two other cars do exist and have been restored as well. Mike’s car was the last to be undisturbed until it’s restoration began several years ago. But there’s clear and detailed color pics of the items prior to the car’s disassembly further documenting the car beyond the period photos.

Unless you have incontrovertible and definitive proof to the contrary there is nothing “puzzling” about this car or it’s equipment.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Hi all,

Just to clarify a couple of things.

I own FRX 942 which was driven by George Phillips.
FRX 941 was driven by Dick Jacobs and was restored in about 2000. I have had brief contact with the owner. The whereabouts of FRX 943 driven by Ted Lund is unknown. The info I have is that it may have lost its original engine and may be in OZ/NZ if indeed it still exists.

FRX 942 is currently undergoing a full 'nut and bolt' rebuild and will possibly be on the road later this year depending on current global circumstances.

@ Bud Krueger, re the other thread, you have my full permission to publish the pictures. I'll drop you a mail with some dizzy end pics as well.

Bill C already has some.

Stay safe all,

Mike
M Spencer

Thanks, Mike. I'll clear it with you before I publish it. Bud
Bud Krueger

Lots of strange items are mentioned. I hed a factory service manual for my 1896 Jaguar XJS and it states the a 2 speed diferential was available
Way back in 1961 I had a MK9 Jaguar with and automatic transmission plus attached to the back of the auto transmission was a Laycock de Normanville OD.
I was the second owner and bought it from our neighbor that had picked it up new in the UK.At that time it had only 23000 miles on it.
Sandy
Sanders

Mike thank you for clearing up several of my errors regarding the three car’s various histories. I get confused as to which car was driven by whom. I should have conferred with you further before a made my comments. It has been a long time since we talked about specific histories. That being said it doesn’t take away from the overall theme that my comments were trying to convey. That your car has a noted MG race history from its onset by a well known driver and is a well documented in various period photos and publications and reprints.

My apologies for the errors and any other discrepancies.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Hi Bill, no apologies necessary my friend :-). Just wanted to let folks know that at least 2 of the 3 ‘unofficial ‘ team cars still exist.

Mike
M Spencer

Bill
Just a little comment -
With the Bowden lever you are after, be aware ,I mentioned earlier that these levers are handed LH-RH - I've seen them on restored bikes on the wrong sides and even the same one on both sides-
If you were going to buy a new one or secondhand for that matter---looking at the(Mike Spencer) pics you put up initially ,that lever ,looking at it from what would normally be the top pulls on clockwise which would make it what's known as a RH lever
On motorbikes they have them so you pull them on then can push them back in with your thumb as you get going
I'd hate for you to spend big and get one that goes the wrong way---
The one on AUS. ebay is also a RH but as you say pricey
Hope this helps somehow--there'll be one somewhere
just waiting for you to find it-
Cheers
willy

Nigel
The old downtube shifters were a real pain in a crit.in more ways than one- when you're going like the clappers and have to let go to change gears---ahhh he's off again-
Campag Shimano , even Dura-ace stuff , to me they all break off the same when you crash, doesn't matter how much you spend, the result is the same.
Although having said that a nice set of carbon Campag shifters and levers is a nice set of stuff.
My son swears by Campag as his hands are a touch on the smaller side and Campag fits him better-
The latest in mountain biking here is a single chainring on the front and 12 speed across the rear with an electric shifter--not really mountain biking is it-??
William Revit

William. Thanks again. Yes, I did notice the lever rotation direction after visiting one of the vintage parts websites. I had to keep flipping back and forth at the pics to make sure I was looking at the correct item. When mounted under the dash the lever assembly is actually upside down compared to a handlebar mounting which adds to the confusion.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

I now have an original Bowden magneto control lever coming from OZ.

W A Chasser

Nice one Bill--
A little bit pricey, but, if you want it you want it and now you've got one--no looking back
Congrats. on your purchase
When you go looking for a cable your local pushbike shop should have one with that roller fitting already swaged onto it. There are a few different types/shapes but it looks like a std. Shimano brake cable, They come plenty long enough for the rear brakes on a bike so should be plenty long enough
Have fun-
willy
William Revit

I decided to bite the bullet on this one. I felt lucky to find the correct one. With a little clean up and rechroming of several bits it’ll be good as new.

I’m fairly certain the distributor end started off as a TC micro adjuster without the vernier. I’m now looking to source it. I don’t know what the brass hardware is called to do a search for these pieces and may have to fabricate them. I wrote to Mike Spencer hoping to get get additional pics of these items once they are cleaned up so that I can get a better idea of what they look like and how they are attached. The slack adjustments on either end of the cables appear to be similar to bicycle or motorcycle pieces.

Special thanks to Mike Spencer for the attached pictures


Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151





W A Chasser

I decided to bite the bullet on this one. I felt lucky to find the correct one. With a little clean up and rechroming of several bits it’ll be good as new.

I’m fairly certain the distributor end started off as a TC micro adjuster without the vernier. I’m now looking to source it. I don’t know what the brass hardware is called to do a search for these pieces and may have to fabricate them. I wrote to Mike Spencer hoping to get get additional pics of these items once they are cleaned up so that I can get a better idea of what they look like and how they are attached. The slack adjustments on either end of the cables appear to be similar to bicycle or motorcycle pieces.

Special thanks to Mike Spencer for the attached pictures





W A Chasser

Pics courtesy of Mike Spencer

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151




W A Chasser

Bill,

There are three points which you need to be aware of for this modification.
1/ If you car is LHD then there is a problem, the steering column prevents adding the two piece clamp.
2/ This mod will only work on the early distributor clamp design (shoulder bolt not cotter pin).
3/The distributor must one which requires the 1/8" spacer on the shaft.

John


J Scragg

John. Thank you for your comments. Mikes car is indeed a RHD. Your first comment regarding LHD is correct. It ll be necessary to trim the long arm. I also had someone PM me showing pictures of a distributor clamp with a shorter arm he had available.

Bill Chasser.
W A Chasser

I know Bill is trying to go with a period piece, but I mentioned to him that some years ago I sold an MGB heater control system to a TD owner that was building a mechanical remote advance.

In thinking about it, it is a reasonable piece for this task. It is set up with the cable system and allows considerable variability by twisting the dial.
Bruce Cunha

This thread was discussed between 02/01/2021 and 06/01/2021

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