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MG TD TF 1500 - Brake line production change.
|Working on putting in the new metal brake lines. I find that my back lines, that run along the differential, are different from what I see on the factory pictures.
I looked online at as many TD differentials with brake lines I could find.
Early cars appear to have 90 degree bends to go around the limiter strap.
Later cars and the factory picture seem to show the brake line going along the differential through the limiter strap.
Looking to see if cars around 4139 or earlier have this bend in their brake lines?
Abingdon Spares Catalogue shows it with the bends.
Here is the left side of mine.
|Here is the factory picture of an unknown number TD|
|Here is one that I found online that matches mine.|
TFs that I have witnessed which are relatively untouched cars, all had the brake lines going around the outside of the the 'limiter strap'. I suspect in some States in USA that the car may not be licensed for the road if the lines are placed along the axle tube,iinside the limiter straps.
Not sure about the TD form.
|The routing isn't clear to me in the factory picture. The lines on my later car, TD 23004, have bends around the limiter strap. The picture shows the original lines before I replaced them.|
|Great comment and photo Joe 0. of the correct brake line layout.|
I have two illustrations of a TD chassis. One shows the brake line going around the check strap. The other shows it going through the check strap. I don't know when the routing changed. The images posted on the BBS are low resolution. I can send higher resolution images to you via email if you want.
This is the first. The line goes around the check strap. It is from the TD lubrication chart in the TD/TF workshop manual. Pretty sure that it was drawn pre-production. I removed the text. See the image in your WSM.
|Here is another TD chassis illustration that shows the brake line going though the check strap. Don't know the origin. Looks like an early 1950 TD because the wheels aren't pierced. The BBS may reduce the image quality too low to see the brake line.|
|Close up of the WSM TD chassis with the brake line around the check strap.|
|Close up of TD chassis with brake line through the strap. My original image described the chassis as 1950. The WSM illustration in previous post is probably pre-production 1950. I'm confused.|
|Bruce the gap at the rear of the diff is a potential problem. Ensure that the line is as snug to the diff as possible. The side curtain box can rub on and wear through the brake line at that point with alarming results. Cunifer is the best material. Easier to work with than steel bundy and doesn't rust internally. Check out the lubrication chart in the Driver's Handbook as this shows a dotted line indicating the path of the brake lines at the rear. Also the sketches in that handbook are invaluable as a guide to originality. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
|Lonnie, around is way better than through. Eliminates the possibility of compression damage to the line. Cheers|
Peter TD 5801
|On my computer, the factory photo looks to me the brake line is going around the check strap like it is supposed to be installed.|
I do see a line consistent in color of the brake line in other parts of the photo in front of the strap with the black background of the check strap.
For safety sake, like others have mentioned, I would go around the strap to prevent something getting pinched.
|Lonnie. That is interesting in that the right side appears to be outside the limiter and the left going through it.
I actually saw TD pictures on the internet that are this way.
Obviously, the cars online may have been changed, but it is interesting that they show it different ways in the drawings.
Joe. After posting this, I did find a 53 on a youtube TD restoration video that has that line configuration also.
The other point is are these machine bends? The bends are fairly sharp. Sharper than I could do with a bender.
Here is a picture of how mine came out. This was following my original ones as close as I could as a pattern.
|One more thing to bring up relating to new brake lines. The kit I got from Moss, has one line that is too short to pattern after the original, and this could be a significant safety issue.
The line between the front block and the middle block has a bend/dip in the cutout where the oil filter for the early TD goes.
The new tubing is not long enough to put in this bend/dip. it has to go straight across the frame.
In thinking why the factory would put this bend/dip in this location, I have come to the conclusion that is was done to keep the brake tube from being damaged either by the left movement of the engine or when the oil filter is changed.
Crimping the brake line here could result in no front brakes.
I reported this to Moss and they are looking into it.
Here is the original bend
|Bruce all four chassis at the house the lines are outboard of the strap|
|W A Chasser|
|Here is where the new line goes|
Here is a link to the topic of brake lines. Dave Braun posted a picture of his car (later TD) prior to restoration.
His lines just move out and around the limit strap.
Several pictures and illustrations in the workshop manual partially showing that the rear brake pipe is routed rearwards so as to clear the axle tubes for their total length. The only one which contradicts this is the lubrication chart shown by Len above. Here is one picture showing this.
About your second point on the length of the front brake pipe. TD parts manual gives the length as 46"
|That is it. I have seen a few online with that setup. Bent at the clamp and angling behind the limit strap.|
So, I think that confirms there were at least two ways the brake lines ran. I still feel the ones with the angle were made on a jig or a machine.
|This group is really great. Chris Cooper can add this as another item we have documented that really has not been in the past.|
In this restoration, this makes three production/part changes that have not been previously documented that I have found.
|Just to summarize:|
* All production brake lines should be outside of the limiter straps?
* Early cars had very tight, machine formed bends in the rear brake lines, later more subtle bends
* Moss's replacement front brake line is not long enough to reproduce the proper routing of the brake line in the filter area on the left side of the chassis
Note I have captured the older bend feature in the Production Exception page
|Chris. I don't know if this is early VS Late.|
Joes 23004 Has the 2 45 degrees angle line
Your car 11272 Picture 112 has the curved line
Your car 23834 Picture # 127 has the angle line
Your car 27489 picture 101 has the curved line
|Bruce: Compare TD23834 image 112 with your first image at the top of this thread.|
|Looks more like the picture of Dave Brauns car.|
Here is my rear that was copied from my original
BTW. Any good tips on how to put the thin metal clamp onto the brake line and get it tight?
|I know that this is a TF and probably has no influence on a TD, but here's how the original lines were on my 55. New lines followed the original layout. PJ|
|The new lines.|
|Cunifer PJ? Cheers|
Peter TD 5801
|Yes, Cunifer Peter. I understand Volvo has been using them for quite some time, I believe other manufacturers have followed along the same path. PJ|
|"BTW. Any good tips on how to put the thin metal clamp onto the brake line and get it tight? "
The factory was not consistent in using these straps so the good news is that if you want to be original, anything goes. :-)
The attached picture from TD11272 is a best practice though IMHO.
Start with the "O" part of the strap and wrap the end around your pipe (or loomb in other applications). Place the strap with the O_ part being flat against the axle. Now wrap the end of the strap around the axle back to the pipe and stick the strap through the slot on the underside and have it come out the top. You have to do this while pressing evenly on the strap to hold it tight against the axle. Now pull the loose end tightly up and then back on itself. That should give you a tight, flat fit against the axle.
What you do the with the remainder of the strap is up to you. In some cases the installer went all the way back around again and in some other cases a few inches and the wrapped it back up again flattening the fold.
|Nobody has mentioned the brake line material. New cars today, use steel not copper and many jurisdictions upon inspection, demand older cars undergo a change to steel brake lines.
I've never been obliged to undergo a provincial (Québec) inspection, which is very tough. I dare not change mine as they have never been disturbed and I've never had a leak. Does the metallurgy of copper change over time?
In all of the discussions here, what brake line material are you using? Anybody replacing old brake lines with new copper ones?
|Over here it is the usual material for replacement brake lines in classics.|
|Gord, Cunifer is THE state of the art brake line material. It's an alloy of Cu (copper) Ni (nickel) Fe (iron/steel) hence the name. Pure copper is banned here in Oz and steel bundy lines can and do rust from the inside out, especially in vehicles that are infrequently used.. So junk copper, don't use steel and install Cunifer. Cheers|
Peter TD 5801
|My lines were original and I thought they were steel as a magnet sticks to them. But i am not sure, When I use fine sandpaper on them, they look copper underneath.
The new ones from England are listed as copper/nickel. When you buff the copper, they turn a light pink color.
I did not like the color, so I used my nickel plater and coated them all so they look silver.
Chris lists brake lines as black, but I see more examples of "original" TD's as having silver colored lines.
Thanks Chris. I found it really tough to come up through the loop, put the pipe against the strap and then bring it back down around the pipe and back through the loop and have it tight.
This thread was discussed between 26/02/2019 and 05/03/2019
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