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MG TD TF 1500 - Brake shoes - something's wrong

(1951 TD) There are less than 500 miles on these front brake shoes. it appears the lining is melting rather than normal wear. They are Moss shoes. Looking at the pictures can anyone see anything wrong with the installation? The drums are smooth and the car does not pull to either side when breaking. The right side shoes are similar to the left.

Tim

Timothy Burchfield

Are those as thin as they look? I don't see how you could possibly do that in 500 miles simply by driving. The pad material must be defective. Unless you had them arced and the guy went way overboard?
Steve Simmons

How are the drums?

Smooth?

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Yeah Steve, they are really that thin. They don't appear to have been extremely hot (no scorching, or burnt smell). They were not arced jsut put in as received. They really look like plastic that has been worn down and leaves a very thin layer along the outside and inside circumference. I ordered new shoes from Moss again (the definition of insanity). I guess you didn't see anything wrong with the installation (wheel cylinders in the right direction, shoes in the right orientation) or you would have mentioned it. I think you are right the lining is defective. When I get the new shoes I'll compare the material to the old ones.

Thanks

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Peter, yeah they are smooth. The shoes themselves are also smooth, no ridges. No pulling to one side when braking. The only reason I pulled the drums was that I ran out of adjustment and I thought the adjusters needed shimming. There were no other symptoms of bad braking. It really looks like the shoes were made out of some kind of plastic.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

I posted some stuff over on the other forum about people that will line your shoes and arc them too.

I will pop the link in your other post.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Thanks Peter.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Have you called Moss about it yet? They should warranty those. There may be a reason for what happened but I just can't think of one.

Been a while since I touched a TD brake but I don't see anything incorrect.
Steve Simmons

That is frightening. Suggest calling Moss ASAP and they should check these out promptly. If they were dragging you would have had a lot of smoke, etc. I don't think assembling wrong would make any difference. George
George Butz III

Steve and George, I'll call Moss tomorrow.

Thanks

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Whats the other side look like?
L E D LaVerne

I'm really glad I kept my original shoes as well as some spares. That really looks bad! It seems both the lining and the pad are way thinner at one end than the other. There really HAS to be better quality control at Moss. I'll add these to my list. Now numbers 65 items. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

It looks uniformly thin to me, but hard to tell for sure from the photo.

This really isn't a quality control issue. They have been selling the same brake shoes for ages and I've never seen this happen. And the pad material on those shoes is the same pad material used on thousands of other brake shoes sold all over the world. There's something else going on, either with the brakes or the shoes themselves. It's possible that the friction material manufacturer had a bad day I guess. No one would ever know until a shoe failed. It will be very interesting to see how this turns out.
Steve Simmons

I thought that the left side of both the lining and shoe looked thinner than the right but it's probably just down to camera perspective. If the shoe is thinner it can't be wear as there is still some lining remaining on the left side. If they are from China someone had previously complained about the incorrect size of the shoes. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

LaVerne, the right side shoes have marginally more material than those in the photo above. Oddly the car stopped straight at all speeds and had no pulling to either side. The right side shoes don't have the paper thin edge on either side of the shoe like the left shoes do. The photo shows the left top shoe. You can see the paper thin edge of the shoe material near the backing plate (lighter color). Notice the smoothness of the shoe. Obviously no premature wear from grooved or rough drums.

Tim

Timothy Burchfield

Tim
Were the drums machined when the brakes were replaced----?
If the drum machine was set up too course or the machining wasn't finished off smoothly with sandpaper after machining it can cause the drums to 'machine' the linings for you
just a thought
willy
William Revit

What did Moss have to say?
JWP Policastro

Any change you could have a really loose/worn/incorrect wheel bearing, or a bearing that is really sloppy in the drum? That would allow the drum to tip side to side and wear the edges.. George
George Butz III

Willy, the drums were not machined at all. They appeared in very good shape so I just cleaned them up with 600 sand paper.

JW, I'm waiting for the new shoes so that I can compare them to the material I have before calling Moss. They should arrive today or tomorrow.

George, the shoes are worn flat across the shoe surface. There is no crowning in the middle. The shoe material that is paper thin and past the edges of the shoes looks like flashing for an extruded plastic part. When the axle nut is tightened up they doesn't appear to be any movement of the drum on the spindle.

Regards

Tim

Timothy Burchfield

If you put new shoes on the rear at the same time I would pull the rear drums and inspect those as well.

Nothing in the photo suggests that you have done anything wrong with the installation.

If the brake shoes were dragging you would have smelled them, not to mention smoke and the car wouldn't over come that much drag. Provided you didn't clean the linings with some solvent, I would say that the lining material is faulty. The last picture you posted shows chunks of the material pulling apart from the lining and thats not normal.
L E D LaVerne

LaVerne, I'm inspecting the rear brakes today. I ordered a full set (4 wheels) and will replace them all regardless of the condition of the back. I used brake cleaner to clean the drums but it shouldn't have any affects on (normal) brake lining material. I'm anxious to get the new brakes and compare them to the ones installed. BTW, I took the opportunity of having the car in the air to install a sway bar. That's the second one I've done with he help of your video. Thanks again.

Regards

Tim
TD12524
TD26711
Timothy Burchfield

OK, rear drum is removed. It is hard to tell from the photo but the brake lining material is flush with the edge of the metal shoe at points A. The material is proud of the edge of the metal shoe by about 3/32 of an inch at point B. I've never seen brake linings deform in that way. All evidence is pointing to poor quality brake lining. Any other suggestions?

Tim

Timothy Burchfield

Here is a couple of photos for comparison....this one is from My TF... New in about 2003. I have had the drums off a number of times.... most recently last year doing a gear change and I haven't seen any issues.


I might add that I removed the fronts and installed disc brakes about 6 months ago but I didn't see any issues with them either

L E D LaVerne

From my departed TD in about 2010. I have no idea how they are holding up.

L E D LaVerne

LaVerne, what a difference. The brakes on my car have only about 450 miles on them. After reading your comment about chunks of material missing from my brake linings I tried to pick out material with my fingernail. I was able to do so. I really asked the original question because I thought I had installed my brakes incorrectly and that was causing the problem. I guess the new brake linings will tell me if the linings or the car is the problem. Thanks to you and everyone for the help and suggestions.

Rrgards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

A soft, organic lining may allow you to pick it apart with a thumbnail, but even then they should last more than 500 miles. I'd expect a bare minimum of 10K. I know TC brakes are different than TD, but they use a similar pad. Mine currently have 20,000 miles on them and look great. It's a standard semi-metallic lining.
Steve Simmons

Tim, when did you buy those shoes from Moss?

I bought a full set in August 2016 and have not had any issues except I think the linings are too "thin" for the brand new drums.

I have over 400 miles on them, last time I peeked they were good

Laverne's shoes look like they have more "meat" to me.

I am going the "custom" route to try and get them adjusted without using most of the adjuster range.

My new drums were 8.940", just 60thou under the 9.00 specification. I did not believe my digital calipers so I bought an old school one and the digital was spot on at 9.000.

BTW, on that list of the 2 vendors that can reline/arc your old shoes it is $175 plus return shipping at BrakePartsSTOP to have them relined and arced to your measurement.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

I went out a dug out the fronts I changed out for the discs. I'm pretty easy on brakes....most new cars I have bought and had well over a hundred thousand miles with pads not even close to needing to be changed.

These have about 40,000 miles or so on them.

L E D LaVerne

This is about what I would expect to see.

L E D LaVerne

Last one

L E D LaVerne

Steve, as you can see from the pictures my linings are a uniform material with no embedded metal. It is a pretty soft material. Where did you buy your brake shoes if I might ask?

Peter, I probably bought the shoes in late 2016. Actually now that I think of it I got them from LBC. I know that LBC doesn't always use parts from Moss and sometimes sources parts from overseas. It will be interesting to see if the new shoes match the old ones in material. That is a very reasonable price. Especially if I don't have to replace the shoes after 450 miles. Thanks.

LaVerne,it looks like your lining is semi metallic. I wonder if they ran out of metal the day my shoes were made. Like Peter, your linings look much thicker than mine were. I do remember thinking when I got the shoes that they looked a little thin for new ones. If I kept buying the same shoes I have I'd need 100 sets to go 40,000 miles. :-)

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Tim, I typically have mine re-lined rather than buying new. But I have run Moss shoes on various cars without issue.

LaVerne's shoes look exactly like I would expect to see them after a few miles.
Steve Simmons

Steve, I just talked to Moss. They said they've sold thousands of brake shoes and never had the issues I'm having. I did check on the description of the brake shoes Moss sells and the ones I received from LBC. They are different. I'm wondering if LBC didn't substitute an off brand brake shoe using the Moss number. I'll definitely go the relining route next time.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Oh, so this could be a non-Moss shoe. That might explain things if they are different. Keep us posted!
Steve Simmons

I have seen LBC use Moss part numbers but supply a part from another source in the past. Moss gets beat up when in fact they had nothing to do with it. I suspect that in this case however that the shoes are only made by one source in China. That said the issue is with LBC and they are the ones to take your complaint too. It's their responsibility to deal with whom ever they bought the shoes from. Where ever they came from, I have a feeling they would like to have them back to examine, because if they have some more on the shelf it's big safety issue that could well become very expensive if they ignore the problem.
L E D LaVerne

No argument from me LaVerne. I've deleted the linings from my list of 'Moss Parts to Avoid'. The use of Moss part numbers by LBC for parts from a different supplier is a worry though. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I know the TC shoes aren't a generic item because a couple years ago I helped Moss develop them with test fittings. I have no idea about the TD shoes though.
Steve Simmons

Tim,

The LBC I assume is LBCarCo?

My shoes came from there a few months before yours and look thinner than Laverne’s.

I had assumed, obviously incorrectly, that all of the Moss numbered parts were from Moss. This is cause for concern.

I have an order with them right now, wondering if that is the right thing to do.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter, yes Little British Car Co. The shoes will be delivered today and I'll post a picture of them. Moss said they have no control over sellers using their numbers. If the shoes appear to be the same as the ones I have now I will contact LBC and discuss the issue. The current shoes were purchased in 2016 but the car has only been on the road since last summer and has about 450 miles on it. A couple of years ago I had a problem with a universal join flange I bought from LBC. When I requested a return number they told me the part was from a non Moss supplier overseas and they would have to check with them before I could return the part. Needless to say I told LBC I had bought the part from LBC and not the overseas supplier and that I would return the part to them. They agreed. I have bought thousands of dollars worth of parts from LBC and generally they have been OK. The main reason I deal with them is price and low shipping costs. I'm going to check with Abingdon Spares and ask them about their use of Moss numbers.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

I see the Moss shoes are on sale right now for a good price, might not be a bad option.

Looking forward to seeing your photo later today.

Thanks.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter, just FYI. LBC follows Moss' sale prices and offers a discount on top of that. Of course if a product fails early the discount only means that you have thrown away less money than if you had paid retail.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Tim,

I knew they followed the sale of Moss parts, the sale ended 6/15, so I am out of luck there.

Moss was $32 on sale, LBC $29.50 I think I saw.

Abingdon will run $85 with shipping, just need to know there is more meat on the lining.

I will wait for your photo before jumping, right now the car is stopping, just I have used a LOT of adjustment on brand new linings/drums.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter et al, here are the photos of the old and new brakes. The new brakes came in a Classic Gold box which Moss says are the brakes they sell. The old brakes are stamped Powertune. From a 2011 post on the MG Experience web site I learned that Moss was selling Powertune parts back then. I called Moss today and they said they don't sell Powertune brakes now. They are available in the UK according to a web search. So my assumption is that although the old brakes I bought from LBC carried the Moss number they were not sold by Moss. depending on how my discussion with LBC turns out I may be buying all my future parts from AS or Moss even if the cost marginally more.

Tim

Please see next post. I forgot to attach the photo and the edit function will not allow me to add pictures.
Timothy Burchfield

Here are the brake photos I forgot to attach. Old age is a terrible thing :-)

Tim

Timothy Burchfield

Here is the Powertune stamping. The new brakes do not any name stamped on them.

Tim

Timothy Burchfield

Thanks Tim, they look more like the "thickness" of the lining material that Laverne had.

I never noticed the PowerTune stamp on mine, I know I got a lot of Classic Gold boxes, definitely the wheel cylinders.

Be very interested to see how the chat goes with LBC. Jeff has been a good guy to deal with, probably spent $1K there in last 2 years is my guess.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Jeff at LBC has always done right by me as well. Regards, Tom
tm peterson

Are there still places that will actually reline your shoes? I thought that service went away with concerns about the asbestos hazard. I have a few cores that I could get relined for spares.
John Quilter (TD8986)

Some people reline their own, and it looks to be a simple job. Not got around to doing it myself though.
Dave H
Dave Hill

I did it several times on cars that I owned, 50+- yrs ago. I think the TD I had then was one of those. Had no subsequent problems due to my work.
Al
54 TF "Emma"
Al Parker

Google classic car brake shoe relining, many places still do. Not sure we have any source for the linings anymore, so would likely have to send some place. Our now closed local shop would do them if you told them they were for a boat trailer! George
George Butz III

John Quilter,

See this link, 2 places that will reline and arc shoes.

https://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?46,3693434,3693434#msg-3693434

I have not used either but BrakePartsStop is $175 to reline and arc 8 shoes, plus retun shipping.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Yes, there are several places to get shoes relined and arced. I use these guys:

Valley Friction Materials
11817 Sherman Way, North Hollywood, CA 91605
(818) 765-5174

For correct arcing, it's best if you hand them one of your drums or give them a precise measurement.
Steve Simmons

Tim,

Have you talked with LBC yet?

Thanks.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

No Peter. It might be a moot point now. The shoes were purchased in 2016 and there is certainly no reason for Jeff to refund any money on the parts. I received the new parts from Jeff and they weren't Powertune. They were Classic Gold and seemed to be better made than the Powertune. Since Jeff isn't selling the Powertune I don't know what value a call about them would be. If I call him i'll let you know.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Tim, I'll have to disagree with you. I don't think the issue is a refund for you. At issue is Jeff's reputation.
Did he sell these poor quality brake shoes under the impression that they were Moss standard quality items? Has anyone else experienced this? Any chance that yours could be a one-off situation?

I think that Jeff needs to be made aware of this issue. In marketing there's a thing called the 'rule of 250' to talk of the effect of a quality issue as it grows among users. Bud
Bud Krueger

I think you'll find Jeff passed away not too long ago.
JIM N

Their 6/10/18 flyer says:
Jeff and Jan Zorn
Little British Car Co., Ltd.
Visit us on the web
https://www.LBCarCo.com

I'm puzzled. Bud
Bud Krueger

I told Jeff he was being reported as no longer alive. Here's his reply.

"What? Come on are you serious? Not pushing up grass yet. At MG2018 right now. Where did you see this?"

I referred him to this thread.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Sure hope Jeff has not departed, but if he has there is life thereafter as he shipped me some parts 3 days ago.

Waiting for postman to deliver them today, looking for to the shortbread cookie (biscuit actually)!

Long live Jeff!
P G Gilvarry

I think the tales of Jeff's departure are overly exaggerated
D. Sander

Here's what Jeff said in his email a couple of days ago.

"BtW told Jan tonight I was dead. She wondered what was wrong with me :)"

Glad to see his sense of humor survives.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

I wish Jeff would respond to this. It's not his sense of humor that's in question, it's his integrity. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud, Jeff has seen this thread and if he thought his integrity was a stake I'm sure he would contribute. I certainly don't have any animosity for him. I've spent thousands of dollars at LBC and have been very happy with almost every transaction. In the two instances where there was a problem Jeff handled them to my satisfaction. The shoes I have were either a one off problem or caused by something wrong with my car. I'll check them after 400 miles and report back. I bought my current shoes from him and will continue to buy parts from LBC. It's nice that you are concerned about his integrity but shouldn't he be the one to decide if it is in question or not?

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Tim,

I think it would be wise for Jeff, or anyone else who has been called to task on an open forum, to speak up and explain what happened if for no other reason than to say the supply problem (if any) has been corrected. I’ve always thought LBC sold Moss parts at a discount (same catalog part numbers) but apparently not...maybe he should state “similar to” next to those that are different.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Tim, I've had a lot of quite satisfactory dealings with Jeff over the years. I've had Jeff buy discounted parts from other vendors for me. I'm not concerned personally. But I can see how someone reading this thread might have concerns. Bud
Bud Krueger

Understood Bud.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Hopefully no one would consider a parts retailer a person of low integrity because a brake shoe that he didn't manufacture had a problem. If that were the case, there would be no trustworthy businesses anywhere.
Steve Simmons

My spare box of Classic Gold shoes purchased from Abington says "Made in China". Possible a quality control issue?? No surprise there are issues with collector car repro parts. I recently struggled to install new major brand name but not Nissan (NLS) shoes on my 280Z, and figured out that the linings were too thick. George
George Butz III

George, You are probably right. I've never seen shoes with the appearance of being melted. Barring an immediate brake problem I'll check them after 450 miles (same as when I discovered the problems above). I'll report back.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

I'm surprised the issue of glues versus riveted hasn't come up.

A few years ago, I bought a set of shoes from Moss whist they were on sale. They were glued shoes. After half a summer of use, they became un-glued. Also, compared to my original shoes, the material was shorter by about ¼"at each end.

I got out my old riveted ones, and had them relined, riveted and arc-ground by a local shop. No problems since.

Incidentally, I specified no metal in the material. I have always felt that sintered or wire-bound braking material, is unnecessarily hard on the drums of our T-Series for standard, day-to-day use.


Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

Off topic here, but I'm wondering if you received the email I sent you Gord?
L E D LaVerne

All modern shoes are glued. If a pad came unglued then it was a manufacturing error. There is no problem with it if done correctly. One advantage of glue is that it eliminates the problem of rivets gouging the drums when the pads get low. The same could happen if a riveted shoe was installed loose. The jerking action further loosens and wears on the rivets and can cause them to shear.

Just for the record, all Classic Gold parts (as far as I'm aware) are made in China. But the quality of most items seems to be very good, some (like water pumps) even better than OEM since they are manufactured to strict tolerances set by Moss. Of course some of the parts are poor quality and fit, but that's to be expected considering how old and obsolete our cars are.
Steve Simmons

OT – OT –OT
LaVern, in your post dated June 15th you mentioned that you changed the Drum to Discs. I’m interesting to do the same on my TD because I pulling regularly a Camping Trailer without a Brake system on it.
My question to you:
Can you give me some more details on your disc system
What kind of disc did you use, from which car?
Did you modify any component from the car?
Did you follow this direction? https://www.mgexp.com/article/mgtd-front-disc-brake-modification.html
Did you use a conversion Kit?
Thank you,
Cheers, Guenter
GK Guenter

Guenter, the conversion I did will only work with wire wheels cars. I posted a video of what I did on you tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sSWDJjVuDc&t=38s

You will have to copy and paste for the li9nk to work.


If you have the original steel wheels and want to keep them, there is only one source that I am aware of and that would be Wilwood Brakes.
L E D LaVerne

Thank you LaVern for response. I do not have wire wheels therefore you design cannot work for me.
I know the Wilwood kit but it is expensive.
Thanks, Guenter
GK Guenter

Reactivated to update brake issue.

Because of the damage to the brakes shoes as seen in the OP I installed a second set at about the 500 mile mark. I recently removed the second set and they were in excellent shape after about 800 miles of service. No distortion, no "melting" as shown for the first set in the OP. None of the brake parts or bearings were different from when the brakes were changed at the 500 mile mark. My only conclusion is that the brake lining material in the first set of brakes was defective somehow. BTW I only removed the second set of shoes to install disk brakes. Just FYI.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

I bought my shoes from Moss and they look like the ones LaVerne showed, thick linings. Since my car had so few miles on it, I almost kept the riveted linings on it, they show almost zero wear, but since everything else was rebuilt or new, I went with new linings. I put the original linings in the boxes the new came in, just in case. PJ
PJ Jennings

PJ, my last set of brake shoes, from Moss, are in excellent shape and also sitting in a box. I'm very happy with the disc brake setup. And we can thank Boris Johnson for making things bought from England quite a bit cheaper now a days. :-)

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

This thread was discussed between 13/06/2018 and 02/08/2019

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