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MG TD TF 1500 Door Gap at Latch Pillar? BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG TD TF 1500 - Door Gap at Latch Pillar?
| What do you consider the ideal gap between the door and the latch pillar? What is the widest gap that will still allow the latch to close safely?
I thought that my TF restoration was finally ready for strip / body work / paint / then final assembly. But a test fit shows that I have an excessive gap between the left door (with skin in place) and the latch pillar (without quarter panel sheet metal in place.) The gap is 3/4 inch! The door gap on the right side may be a little tight. At 73 years old, I don't have time to start over, so I'm trying to fix my often bungled newbee restoration. Probably by moving the hinge pillars fore and aft. I had moved them previously - - cuts and shims. Thanks for your help, suggestions, and advice. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Lonnie can you show a couple of pics of your problem? Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Lonnie, are you talking about the fore to aft distance or the side to side distance? Don't know if it is applicable but here's a video of how one guy is going to handle his fore to aft distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNvaTklqdo door section starts at 3:52. Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| Thats Jamie Gillam. He is doing a mid 1950 TD (1200's I think) He is at about the same point in restoration as I am. I have been working with him. He lives down under in Tazmania. He and Bill Chasser need to get together, I think the are the current experts on doors. Speaking of Doors, I started fitting mine this week. Got one in and so far, things are going well. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| I gave up watching this guy's video very early on. It was painful. For starter's he's using the wrong profile rubber. When he started talking about door adjustment I just had to switch off. It was unbearable. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I have to agree with Peter, the clown in Tasmania has his third video on doors, needs to remove the first 2, or issue a disclaimer that says “I don’t know what I am doing”. |
| P G Gilvarry |
| PG Gilvarry, I don't see a reason to call him a clown. He's trying and he readily admits his failures. I know I, and I would guess you, have struggled with various aspects of restauration over the years. If I put a video on YouTube of some of some of my efforts in putting my TDs back together I'd have to call it a blooper reel. I do find it rather humorous that Bruce called the Tasmanian and Bill the door experts (they probably would as well). Both have struggled with door alignment for quite a while. I think most everyone would say that doors are one of the hardest things to fit properly on a TD or TF. Anyway, I just don't see the need to insult someone just because they aren't meeting one's personal expectations.
Regards Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| First off I hate videos in almost all cases, especially this application.
Forgive me for not investing my precious time to look over all of his videos but can someone who has tell me if he ever attacked the door spacing by various shims of the body bucket to the chassis? Until you get that opening right, there is no sense in going further. You can forget the hinges etc and just make sure you can fit the door into the space first (takes two people). Once you think the opening is correct have someone hold the door into the space (no hinges installed). A few small rubber pads on the bottom and sides can help align and represent the needed gaps. Then a person inside can check the alignment and make notes on how the door should fit. And of course this is where you test your chassis shims too. Once all that is done then you can proceed to figure out the best arrangement of hinge bending, spacing, torquing is required. And lastly the famous tension strap to twist the door if (probably) needed between front and back. Fitting the doors is an art but the first thing you should NEVER do is trim, cut or otherwise destroy some metal to make it work. This is the first sign you are doing something wrong or there is some other underlying issue that needs to be dealt with first. I cringed when he stated he was thinking of trimming the sheet metal on the hood panel. :-( |
| Christopher Couper |
| Behind every successful endeavor lies a vast amount of research. This is an indisputable fact. Here in this archive alone there is a wealth of information on this very subject going back nearly 30 years. It contains the collective wisdom of many who are no longer with us but whose knowledge and freely given intellectual property lives on. There is also a fair bit of misinformation, it needs to be said, but the correct method of hanging doors has been established by countless attempts involving trial and error. I'm not going to waste my time here telling our Tasmanian friend and the world how it should be done. I'll simply suggest he spend some considerable time in this archive before he takes another step. I could also send him my paper on the method I've used. It was based on hours and hours of research here and will be available early next year to members of M.G. TTORC, which stands for M.G. T Type Owners & Restorers Club. But I won't, as he does need to do his own research, simply to lean a valuable process that will stand him in good stead for the rest of his build. Research works. Using this process is slow, sure, but it does guarantee a successful and pleasing outcome. For me the journey has been every bit as important as the destination. Learning by trial and error does work in the end but it can be an expensive process. And it works particularly well for those who have more money than sense. Cheers
Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| What Chris just said. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I am going to disagree with Timothy, instead of asking for help on forums like this he publishes videos with errors, then tries to setup a shop to sell sweatshirts. His door videos have been atrocious, sorry my opinion. There are several experts on places other than Facebook, he does not venture there despite suggestions to do so. However I will admit as a fellow Australian he has provided entertainment, as does my TV. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
| When I first started my series of videos of rebuilding my TD, I was aware I would receive some negative feedback and I cop this on the chin. I have stated many times I am not a mechanic, nor have I done this before. I am learning as I go, and the comments have been extremely helpful to help me correct some of my mistakes. These videos were first created as a promise to the previous owner’s widow so she can see the progress of her late husbands’ car as it is being rebuilt. I received such a good response and was encouraged to publish them online.
What I would appreciate is before someone criticizes the method I am using to perform some work is to watch all of the video, or series of videos and then you will be better informed what I have already tried or why I am doing something a certain way. Everybody was a beginner at some stage and looked towards more experienced people for assistance, that’s how they learn. I have already shimmed the body tub to correct the door gap (this was mentioned in my videos), but as my TD does not have any mounting points forward of the door other than the chassis uprights at the firewall, it proved difficult to do. You would also see I have already fitted the door without any hinges (a job easily achieved by one person, not two like instructed) and the door gap is almost spot on, hence why I have now moved onto the hinges and the spacers/packing behind them. Yes, I have spent many, many hours researching the fitment of the doors and have asked numerous questions from many sources including forums like this and others, and I have tried out what I have discovered so far. I have also had several T-series owners visit my garage and they gave advice on what to do next with the door fitment as well. My fellow Australian seems to take great pride in holding his valuable research close to his chest as he thinks I have not done my research. That is certainly his prerogative. Making assumptions about someone else’s actions can result in a poorly informed opinion. Instead of being critical to the way I am performing my work, how about reaching out with a helping hand. This has created an interesting situation as it seems he is more than willing to help this member who initiated this post. Did this person do any more research than I have? That question was never asked, instead he was happy to start asking questions to be able to help him. What makes him any different to me? Seems like double standards to me. It seems even if I did contact this person during my research, he still wouldn’t have given me any assistance anyway. You don’t necessarily need to tell me how to fix it, but you could mention checking out a post on a certain forum or have you contacted a certain person that might be able to help you. I have spent months researching this and many other issues with this car on many different forums other than Facebook plus also contacting other T-series owners directly and up until now everybody has been more than willing to assist me in my endeavor to get this car back on the road. Some of these very helpful members have given me parts, offered to help with the work and even offered me to use their workshop. Why do I have videos of the same subject? I am showing what work I have done, what didn’t work, and hopefully what did work. I am hoping that other more constructive minded people can use my videos as reference when they are rebuilding their pride and joy. Perhaps they may have come across the same issue I am having and offer advice on how to correct the problem, instead of being a troll and criticizing someone who is trying to have a go. It is disappointing our MG community has attracted a couple of keyboard warriors. I will be the bigger man here and admit I don’t know what I am doing, but I’m having fun and it seems by 99% of the comments I have been receiving that most other viewers are enjoying the content. If you don’t like what I am doing then stop watching the videos and keep your opinions to yourself, or man up and offer some constructive criticism that will help everybody and then world just might be a better place. Sometimes people find it easier to criticize someone’s actions instead of offering advice to help them become better at what they are doing, and name calling is not acceptable in any instance! |
| J Gillam |
| J Gillam Bravo, well said |
| Ian Fry |
| JG my response is for you to really research this archive. Had you done so, the videos you have produced simply wouldn't have happened and who knows how many people wouldn't have been misled. I genuinely do wish you well with your efforts however and hope that you finally end up with a T Type that you can be proud of. Answers can only be found by those who truly seek them. Cheers Peter TD 5802 |
| P Hehir |
| Why don't you guys start an OT thread to trash each other and concentrate on helping Lonnie? I hate it that this board has degenerated so much like the rest of the internet. I guess I need to replace the wrong profile rubber on my really terrible TD- which was all there was when I restored it....George |
| George Butz III |
| Hi Lonnie, hope this will help. For those not following Lonnie's restoration, his TF had the wood replaced many years ago. It was typical workmanship of the day- get the car to work again with no regard for precise fit or originality. So there were no original patterns/pieces and the fit of everything was all over the place. After disassembly, there were many panels that were not close to fitting, ie bulkhead to quarter panels, etc. He has spent countless hours dealing with this mess, and obviously the door gap got away somehow. Also consider the only two enthusiasts within hundreds of miles of here that did T-series wood died recently. Here are my suggestions: Figure out if the latch pillar is too forward, or the hinge pillar too far back. Or both. Preferably bolt or attach the front and rear wings and then place the running board and if the tub has "grown", the resulting gap may tell you which end is off. Maybe take some measurements from spots on the cowl/door opening and lowest/widest part of the opening to a fixed point on the chassis or tub steel and compare side to side. Of course imperative to fix this, as if the tub side has grown, the side curtains/hood won't fit either. Even though Chris is from California (haha), I like his suggestions about spacers, etc. which will work if you can loosen things up. Off to Cars and Coffee- supposedly a line up to tribute Ford vs. Ferrari today! George |
| George Butz III |
| > Peter Forgive me for not following up with photos. > George Funny that you suggested to assemble the car before proceeding to define the fit of the doors. I started yesterday and will complete today. It was a good decision. I’ll post photos and questions this weekend. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Lonnie: In the ideal world you would do all your rough body work with the car assembled, or if need be remove an item, bang it out and then reinstall.
This way everything in the car "fits" properly and you know exactly how everything will line up and can note shim sizes, spacers, hardware etc. Then you can take the car apart and do the more refined body work that will not change the dimensions of items, refinish and put it all back together. Not doing it this way you run the risk of getting a car that totally looks like it was made from parts. I have seen lots of cars that are wonderfully finished but just look wrong because they proceeded to fix everything first and then assemble. |
| Christopher Couper |
| Well, so much for friendly advice and camaraderie. Lonnie, just to second Chris. I fitted the door to my 51 TD and got a nice alignment. Unfortunately, the tub was not on the frame. Once it was installed I had to start over. I've found that by varying the thickness on the body pads you can make a lot of difference to the fore and aft and side to side distances. Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| Lonnie going right back to the beginning of this thread can you post a pic of your issue? Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Lonnie, are you talking about the fore to aft distance or the side to side distance? Don't know if it is applicable but here's a video of how one guy is going to handle his fore to aft distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNvaTklqdo door section starts at 3:52
From watching that video it would seem to me that the error may be with the rear body mount, my first move would have been to lift the rear mounting up with extra packers to shoot the top of the B pillar forward, thereby reducing the top hinge to pillar gap. The door wood should be replaced first as the patches may have altered the door frame shape. However one cannot see how accurate the B pillar is positioned. |
| Rod Brayshaw |
| Rod I ended up using 10 mm plastic packers at the rear and with smaller packers varying from one to four mm at the other two points on each side. I agree that without dealing with all three and a completed door, it's impossible to set the door up successfully. I'm also unsure of where/why the gap is and which is why I would love to see a pic of the issue. Having the vehicle on the ground, tyre pressures correct, and a sandbag simulating half a tank of fuel over the rear rail and tank also goes a long way to ensuring door fit issues are resolved. Cheers
Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I liken the problem of both order of assembly and change in shape as one does assemble to the problems I encountered and had to anticipate when fitting out my steel canal boat out of the water. Firstly you could not use a spirit level but more importantly once the boat was in the water it changed shape due to the bouancy effect on weight distribution. The natural deflection of the structure as it "grows" will always be difficult to anticipate without the skill accrued by the long term tradesman. As enthusiasts we can only try,practice and hope our end result will be to OUR satisfaction and allow us to enjoy standing back and thinking "I did that and I'm pleased with what as a layman I've achieved" |
| JK Mazgaj |
| Peter and responders to my post, this is the first of FOUR posts with photos and information about my door openings. A link to all photos is at the bottom of this post. I suggest that you read all four posts before replying.
I should reword my original question: >>> What is the ideal gap between the front inside edge of the door and the edge of the quarter panel at the latch pillar? I revised my question after doing a test-assembly of the car and taking photos. These two photos show the left door clamped to the hinge pillar. A 5/32" spacer is between the edge of the door and the hinge pillar. The quarter panels are not in place, the tie bar between the hinge pillars is not in place, the latch pillar is not attached to the firewall or dash support. If you look closely, you can see light between the front outside edge of the door and the opening in the latch pillar. The bottom photo shows the gap between the inside edge of the door and the latch pillar. That’s a 3/4" forstner bit between them to show the size of the gap. Link to all photos and description of trial fit: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SfNjfhTRK2rGnMknZ74WhGdnKacrzaVs/view?usp=sharing Lonnie TF7211 
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| LM Cook |
| (Second of FOUR related posts)
Rather that attack the wood gaps willy-nilly, I assembled the car so that I could see how changes will affect other areas of the car. The top photo shows the trial-fit. Nothing is nailed, screwed, or bolted together. After attaching all sheet metal, I screwed the hinge to the pillar with temporary wood screws instead of clamping the door to the pillar with 5/32" shims. The middle photo shows the left door with quarter panels in place and the hinges screwed to the hinge pillar. Notice the gap between the door and the pillar. It's larger than the 5/32" spacer that I used when I clamped the door to the bare pillar in the previous post. The larger gap moved the door forward to take up some of the excessive gap at the latch pillar. The bottom photo is a closeup of the gap at the latch pillar of the left door. The gap is less than the 3/4" gap in the previous post, but larger than the 5/32" shim that is taped to the front of the door with blue tape. Link to all photos and description of trial fit: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SfNjfhTRK2rGnMknZ74WhGdnKacrzaVs/view?usp=sharing Lonnie TF7211 
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| LM Cook |
| (Third of FOUR related posts)
George, As you know, I am a total MG restoration newbee. I understand why the doors should be fitted first. However, I also received advice to move pillars to make the gap between the front and rear quarter panels tight, but not overlapping, so I went in that direction. I'm pretty sure that I can correct most of my wood mistakes. The top photo shows cuts and shims on the left hinge pillar. I moved it forward and back a couple of times. I can move it forward to tighten the gap at the latch. I may need to move the latch pillar to the rear a little to make a better fit at the front side rails. The bottom photo shows the gap between the front and rear left quarter panels. This is how much the left hinge pillar can be moved before the panels overlap. I believe that TF front and rear quarter panels fit together differently than TD quarter panels. >>If the hinge pillar needs to be moved more, should I trim the rear quarter panel at the joint? Link to all photos and description of trial fit: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SfNjfhTRK2rGnMknZ74WhGdnKacrzaVs/view?usp=sharing Lonnie TF7211 
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| LM Cook |
| (Forth of FOUR related posts.)
Chris I spend over half of my restoration time researching the next step with books, BBS archives, and questions. In defense of first-time restorers, long-time T-series owners and experienced restorers may not understand that the mountain of information available is overwhelming. Some of the information conflicts. Terminology differs among "experts." Very difficult for a newbee to know how changing placement of one part will affect the position of another part. Repeated trial and error is frustrating and demoralizing. Research doesn’t take the place of an experienced MG restorer looking over my shoulder, but as George pointed our, fewer and fewer old-timers are available to help. I attached and removed panels, doors, and wood dozens of times, but this is the first time that I have done a test assembly of the entire car. I’m glad that I did so. It gave me insight that partial assemblies didn’t show to me. I hope that a few more cycles of disassembly, tweak, reassembly, etc. will solve my problems. I know nothing about body work, so I am not modifying any sheet metal. I’m too old and too tired to start over. If I need to do so, I may sell the car as-is for probably less that the cost of my totally rebuilt XPEG engine that will be ready to install around the first of the year. I appreciate all advice from you and any forum member that will help me complete my restoration correctly. Link to all photos and description of trial fit: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SfNjfhTRK2rGnMknZ74WhGdnKacrzaVs/view?usp=sharing Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Lonnie: The pictures in the 2nd post look good to me. The spacing and technique using the shims is spot on for what I can see with the exception of the gap you noted at the bottom which may not be worth the effort.
You should also set the door lock on both sides (with shims taking the place of the interior materials) to see how it latches and aligns. There is some ability to adjust the latch on the pillar side and if needed you can also change the position of the striker with washers. The following is what I have done in the past but frankly, on only about 3 out of the 30+ cars I have done. Most did not need or deserve this much attention. And on the west coast very few cars needed new wood or panels so that was a cheat too. To be totally pickey you would have to do a lot of work with the wood to make all the spacing equal. I just don't think these cars are worth that and I am doubtful many left the factory that way, at least purposefully. In the ideal world you would start with the lower wood piece as that dimension cannot be changed by anything but the length of the wood. Once that measurement was equal to the door plus required gap then the body shimming will open or close the top part (ie sides) appropriately where you could then get the spacing equal. You would have to do this without the hinges in place. And you will be constrained by having the top of the door flush with both the rear and front. Note both of those places have lead filler and that is another slight tweak that can be "tuned" if needed. Then once the door fits into the space perfectly and everything lines up as you liked it you would install the hinges. Expect to bend them as you go and allow for some minor adjustments after you torque them down. Try fitting hinges in as you go without bending them (ie find the best ones first) and then only bend ones that don't fit with the rest. Otherwise you could chase your tail. Lastly do the door twisting with the strap. This really is just to get the spacing equal against the body bucket. |
| Christopher Couper |
| You said it best George. Thanks for that. Will we see you and Lonnie at GOF-54 in April?? Cheers Gary 79 MGB |
| gary hansen |
| I’ll definitely be at GOF-South in April. My TF will be there, too ... although maybe only partially completed on a trailer if I don’t hurry up with the restoration. It’s gonna be a wonderful GOF. All models of MGs and conditions are welcome. You’ll enjoy the rallyes. Good seminars, too. Best weather in the country. https://www.gofsouth.org/ Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Chris -
Thanks for the tips. Back to the original question … What is the ideal distance between the front inside edge of the door and the edge of the front quarter panel at the closest point? And secondly … What is the largest distance that will allow the latch to keep the door closed? I'm going to move at least one pillar to make the door fit better. The large gap at the back of the door when I installed the hinges surprised me. I didn't see the gap when I test fitted the QP previously. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Hi Lonnie, Just back from out of town/off the grid. I'm going to look through some pre-restoration pictures for some of the gaps. As far as latch distance, the pin should fit deeply into the striker bolt when fully latched, and catch on the first latch. Just hold them up and eyeball. Are they new hinges or originals- that can make a huge difference. I'll deep dive into your photos when I have time. Quickly looking, the widest part of the gap is too wide, and remember you can move the door in the opening by shimming tub mounting points and also warp the door using strap/turnbuckle, etc. George |
| George Butz III |
Gap of right side door just before final assembly. All wood new except internal door wood. Gaps outside beautiful. Note backer plates for nuts.
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| George Butz III |
All original wood and stuff on the left side of the tub, all rock solid. Note the negative gap at the top. This was always chaffed metal to metal. I don't remember what I did to open it, but think I persuaded with hammer/dolly and filed off lead on the cowl corner to make space. This gap is on the tight side IMHO. I'll keep looking for the rest of the pictures.
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| George Butz III |
| Thanks George,
I'll probably take the car apart late this week. I'll hold the latches in place and see how they will fit before I take I disassemble. After disassembly, I'll investigate the reason for the large gap at the hinges. It wasn't that large before I did the complete trial-assembly. The quarter panels may not be seating fully onto the hinge pillars, which could push the hinges apart. The hinge pillars fit so tightly into the bottom main rail that adding or removing shims under the body frame doesn't affect the pillars vertical position very much. I know that I will move at least one pillar fore or aft. Maybe all four. Using new Moss hinges. I have made backer plates for the doors. Will do same for hinge pillars when I drill them for bolts. Thanks, Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Lonnie contact me off line pjbm at bigpond dot com. I have something that could be of assistance to you in your endeavors. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter … you have mail. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| I just remembered some years ago a client supplied his own wood kit from Moss USA.
I had initial trouble with a large hinge gap at the top hinge and after much time and effort I discovered the rear bottom rail 449-130 was incorrectly machined. If you look at the image you will see the ply position is not angled enough towards the front, so this sets the rear wood and B pillar (hinge pillar) too far back at the top therefore shooting the door upwards if no packers are used. I am not sure if Moss have corrected this rail profile since. this could explain why many have a big top hinge gap. The B Pillar is set at 90 deg to the bottom sill rail that is screwed to the angle iron frames. I am building my 40th TD/TF wooden frame and have never had to pack any hinges at all. I do jig assemble all frames but if built up on a chassis it should not make any difference if all care is taken in the set up. I believe the first piece of wood to start with is the rear bottom rail, then the ply , and then the rear top rail. If these pieces and angle are not correct you just chase your tail around the entire tub. 
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| Rod Brayshaw |
| Does anyone know if Moss has corrected this problem? Hope the info helps you Lonnie. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| "Using new Moss hinges"-there is another thread out there about new hinges. I recall the bends/fit can be totally different than the originals, as was the case on this thread. Suggest trying with original hinges. George |
| George Butz III |
This thread was discussed between 05/12/2019 and 11/12/2019
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