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MG TD TF 1500 - Fender help needed

My right side fender(bottom picture) has an area formed to clear the shock absorber. The left side (top picture) has no such relief stamped into the fender. Is this correct? The left fender is hard against the shock absorber body and is preventing the front of the fender to line up with the front frame holes.. The car was completely disassembled when I bought it so I don't know if these were the original fenders to the car. My car is a 1951 TD. Thanks for any assistance.

Tim
TD12524

TW Burchfield

Tim, early TDs had Girling shocks which did not require the notch later TDs had Armstrong shocks and required the notch for clearance. Looks like you have one of each fender.
I have attached a picture of the early shock. Since you have an early TD I would find a used pair of Girling shocks and have them rebuilt.

rich40701

You have had a fender replaced at one time. Check to see which shocks you have. Girlings (early TD s) would have smooth wings over the dampers. Late TD s had Armstrongs which require the hump in the wing for clearance. I don't know when the change occurred but it is documented I believe on Chris Couper's Original Mgtd site Sounds like you car is equipped with Armstrongs and a repair shop had to put an early wing on and didn't care about the fit.
W. A. Chasser Jr

There is a metal flange in the area of the shock cut out that you can cut or bend out of the way and also adjust/move the wing around to use the early fender with Armstrongs. My car was this way for many years. Above good advice. You likely want to have fenders match after paint, should be easy to remove the bump out in the later fender if you get the correct shocks. George
George Butz

Thanks gentlemen. I do have Armstrong shocks. They were just rebuilt. For accuracy and cost I guess a correct (used) left fender is in order. Any one need a used, early left fender?

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

Tim: You probably have Armstrongs because that was all that was available around the mid 60's. My car has the bumps and Armstrongs but I am 99% sure it had Girlings originally. Its a late 1952 but the bolts holding my Armstrongs were way too long and had all sorts of washers filling the gap. How are your bolts? Are they also too long with lots of washers or spacers or the correct length?
Christopher Couper

Chris, the bolts attaching the Armstrongs appear to be correct, correct length and no excess washers. I note that the unrestored 1951 MGTD (11272) pictured on your web site has Girling shocks and thus no bump out on the fender. Unless a change was made between that car and mine TD12524 it would seem that my Armstrong shocks were added sometime after production. Unfortunately I have rebuilt the Armstrong shocks and I do have one fender with the Armstrong bump out so money wise It will be cheaper to go with an Armstrong ready fender. If you know of one for sale please let me know.

Regards
Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

Chris, a further review of unrestored cars on your website may give a time frame for when Armstrong shocks were added. Under Assorted Unrestored Pictures there is TD20609 equipped with Armstrong shocks and the fender bump outs. The latest unrestored car that had Girling shocks pictured on your website is TD11272. So if these cars are truly unrestored the change over from Girlings to Armstrongs occurred sometime between 10/30/1951 (TD11272) and 10/06/1952 (TD20609). Agreed?

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

All we can really know is when they started adding the bump that allowed for either shock to be used. I expect it was a supplier thing and most likely at some date they transferred over to Girling exclusively but I am not sure when that might have been.

So a car with the bumped fenders could have had either shock.

And I can guarantee that my car has the original fenders (TD 19629) and am suspicious that it originally had Girlings because of the bolts/washers and also when I pulled the car apart in the early 1970's it had bronze colored Armstrongs. Clearly my father had those replaced as no car left the factory with non black shocks.

Note the picture shows the frame after I started reassembling it as the b/w pictures do not show the color of the shocks well. I went out of my way to restore what I found since I had no access to any other information at the time.

Christopher Couper

Chris don't you mean "they transferred over to Armstrongs exclusively"? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

When I got Lazarus, TD10855, the fenders were 'flat-topped' with Girlings. There was no indication of any fender changes. Here's a view showing the areas of concern. (I hadn't learned about segmented the segmented belt at that time.) Bud

Bud Krueger

Chris, Do your fenders have the bump outs? The Girlings fit without the bump out and the Armstrongs don't. I believe they only added the bump out when they went to Armstrongs. They may have used some existing stock of girlings but there really seems to be no other reason to do the tooling for a different fender unless they were going to make a permanent switch. Making two different fender stampings based on suppliers of shocks doesn't seem reasonable. And the only reason to add the bump out is for shock clearance. I've looked at many TDs on the web and I haven't seen any '52s without the bump out (when that area is visible).
TW Burchfield

From The Sacred Octagon, April 1980, article by "Chip" Old, who was the t-series guru in his day: "The vast majority of TDs left
Abingdon with Luvax Girling dampers but
later were replaced by Armstrong.(figs.
30,32). On most Armstrong-equipped TDs
the front wings were dimpled to provide
clearance over the taller dampers, and I
have been told (but cannot verify) that the
chassis bracket for the engine stabilizer link
was also modified as a result of the new
dampers. The Service Parts List shows both
types of dampers, but does not tell us when
the switch from Girling to Armstrong was
made. Nor does it list the modified front
wings and engine stabilizer bracket. The
change was apparently made some time
during 1953, but exactly when is unknown". He knew more about originality than any of us ever will! The service parts list also lists the same fenders for all years so that is no help. Perhaps a sheet metal guy could stretch the metal and make a bump out and/or cut in a small patch? Should be much easier than obtaining a whole fender. George
George Butz

My 53 24987 has the bumps and girling shocks. I am sure they are all original
DL Rezin

OK. So I cannot type. Yes Peter I meant transferred. I really believe that they probably did use both suppliers for a period of time. You can certainly use the Girlings with the bump outs but cannot use the Armstrongs without them.

As far as the Engine Stabilizer bracket: All you need is a spacer to fill the gap and a longer bolt. Not unlike what we have with the steering column bracket spacer on the firewall. I have not looked at the parts list to see if any of this is mentioned.
Christopher Couper

George, thanks for the info from the SO article. I think we do have a time frame for when Armstrongs were introduced. The bump out on the fender would not have been added if Armstrong shocks were not being used. Looking at Chris's site at two unrestored cars shows that the bump out was not present on a car manufactured on 10/30/51 but was present on a car manufactured on 10/06/52. So I reason that Armstrong shocks were introduced during that time frame. Examining additional unrestored cars between those dates would further narrow the Armstrong introduction date. Of course there is no reason remaining stocks of Girling shocks could not have been used after the bump out was introduced or added later.

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

My TD (16175) was built May 16, 1952 and has Armstrongs and fender "bumps".
B Mooney

Chris I was referring to the Girling reference (I'm sure you meant to say "Armstrongs"). No problems with your typing or the use of "transferred". :-) Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

B Mooney, if your car is original then that pushes the introduction of Armstrong brakes back several months.
Regards
Tim
TW Burchfield

I don't know for sure if everything on the car is original. But I think the shocks and fenders are.
To add to this issue: I rebuilt a 52 TD back in 1968. I checked photos from then and found Girling shocks and fenders with the bump. Car was TD16472 built May 23, 1952. I am sure it was all original. See photos of shock and fender.

B Mooney

Fender bump

B Mooney

Senior moment. Those sure look like Armstrong shocks, don't they?

B Mooney

B Mooney, for a second there I thought I might be wrong about the shocks. I looked at your picture and said to myself, Damn, I always thought those were Armstrong shocks. :-) Thanks for clearing that up. BTW, my senior moments are so frequent it's becoming my senior life.

Tim
TW Burchfield

This thread was discussed between 15/01/2016 and 19/01/2016

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