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MG TD TF 1500 - Front seal cutter

Dave Sander, Bud Krueger, Len Fanelli and others who do not like the idea of cutting the front lip off to seat a seal please do not read any further in this posting.

Thank you.

From my research I know of at least three seal cutters. The one from Gene hear in the states and the one from Bob in Canada are currently not available. I am waiting for response to my email to Huib in the Netherlands to see if his is available.

Does anyone know of another cutter that is presently available?
Thanks,
Mort
M Resnicoff

I have Genes....hope to be done with it in a week or two...hoping my block is back later this week. Send me an email with your address and I'll send it to you when I'm finished with it.
L E D LaVerne

Gee whiz, Mort, I just couldn't quit reading. Do you realize that it was almost exactly 3 years ago (1/28/14) when you started a thread about the topic. Folks can find that thread by archiving to 'Front Seal'. Good images from Huib.

About two years ago I reinstalled my front (Volvo) seal in hopes of doing a better job. Yecchh! Maybe you can do it well if the engine is out of the car. I doubt seriously if one can solidly center the seal on the crank pulley. Silicon goo is not a solid enough cement, IMHO. I might be willing to try the cutter myself. Good luck. Bud
Bud Krueger

Hi Bud,
Happy new year. How are things working out down south?
LaVerne is sending me Gene's cutter. I will keep you posted on the status of the project.
Mort
M Resnicoff

Ok, I will bite. What does cutting the seal do?
Bruce Cunha

Bruce I think it is a fixture to cut the outer casting lip from the oilpan and timing cover so a seal can be pressed into place while the two are bolted together. I may be wrong. I've used lip seals without issue so far with a silicone bead applied to the two pieces and using the pulley to center it. I guess others have had issue with it. I think it's like those who chose to use the Archimedes screw vs the Moss conversion vs the small block Chevy seal conversion. To each their own.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W. A. Chasser

Mort, I have to confess... I continued reading. ;-)
D. Sander

Hi guys,

This is a bit far away (South Australia.) It is an image of my cutter, which is piloted off the main bearings. Unfortunately it is only of use on a dismantled engine but it works well. "Dummy" packing must be used to simulate the gasket thickness.

Bob Schapel

R L Schapel

Bob

I am very impressed with the ingenuity you apply to improving the reliability and performance of XPAG engines, great job.

Graeme
G Evans

The reason the lip seal didn't give the desired results on my engine was because the channels in the sump and timing cover did not allow the seal to sit 90 degrees with the crank. The picture doesn't show it well but after I cleaned both up and placed a new seal in the channel it was clear that it was never going to work without something else being done. Ideally the seal would sit in a single piece of metal (like the MGB) and would have "float" that would allow the seal to be centered on the crank pulley while keeping it square.

L E D LaVerne

That's exactly what I found when I examined the old seal the last time I replaced mine. When I bolted the timing cover to the sump and slid the pulley into the old seal I saw that the pulley was tilted downward at an appreciable angle. Any other location for such a seal in the car requires force to seat the seal, e.g., bell housing for gearbox shaft or rear axles. I'd love to find a solid fit without having to dismantle the engine. Bud
Bud Krueger

Anyone thought of putting a spacer (like a thick washer) in between the seal and the timing chain cover. It would take up the space normally filled with silicone sealant.

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

When I installed the new seal, I temporarily set it in place with no sealer to check it for center, luckily it centered very well. I then put vinyl sealer in, reset it and all came out well, it doesn't leak a drop. Hearing others problems, I consider myself very lucky. Here's what I used I use it for almost everything. PJ


Paul Jennings

Finished.

Whether or not it leaks is a concern for the future. I still have some accessory work to do on the engine before I put it back in the car. I have also completed the rewiring behind the dash but that is a subject for another post.

Updates to follow.

M Resnicoff

I take it that I'm seeing the result from Gene's cutter. Which seal is that? Did you have the pulley on the crank when you located the seal? Could it be done with the engine 'in situ'? What is the serrated item that we're looking at? Bud
Bud Krueger

Mate What ever you do dont turn that engine over without installing the crank shaft pulley. That key is sitting there as a lethal weapon and could destroy your good work.
G Evans

Is it necessary to dowel locate the sump to the chain cover or can you use a collar, pushed over the crank nose to ensure alignment?

Jan T
J Targosz

Bud,
Yes it was Gene's cutter.
Colonial Seal 36x50x7 A Viton
The seal done this way is it different from putting a seal into the original cavity. In that method it is good to use the pulley to center the seal. With this method the cutter sits on the shaft and makes a perfectly concentric seat for the seal.
As you can see from the picture below Gene's cutter has three arms to manually rotate cutter. You also need to apply manual pressure to the front to have a cutter bite into the metal. The arms will not rotate past the engine bracket that sits on the motor mount. I am not familiar with other cutters but this one would be virtually impossible with the engine in the car.
The serrated item is the end of the crankshaft itself. This is not a standard crankshaft. It is a billet crank that I bought from the UK.

G Evans
The photo was taken with the engine out of the car and with the key in place ready for the pulley.

Jan,
Several people have suggested using some dowel pins. I don't think it is absolutely necessary. With the engine in or out of the car I think the sump can be located, in that front seat area, either visually or with the feel of your finger as you tighten the bolts. That being said I am currently investigating the proper pin, drill bit and reamers and will probably put two pins in the block.

M Resnicoff

Thanks for the response, Mort. I'll be anxious to hear your experience. BTW, what sort of seal do you have at the rear on the crank? Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud,
With respect to their rear seal. I have been told that the original factory specification call for 0.005" clearance in the scroll area. Len Fanelli and the others have milled the engine and then line bored to create a 0.001" clearance. This small clearance is not supposed to allow any oil to pass. Len and others have claimed zero leaks with this method. When I put in a new billet crank the OD of the shaft was large enough to render milling and line boring unnecessary. The machine shop was able to just machine the area of the hole in the engine over the scroll area to a 0.001" clearance.
I put it thousand miles on the engine before I pulled it to fix the front seal. I believe the operation was a success. I will have more definitive information when the car is back together and road tested.
Mort
M Resnicoff

Dont you love how the editors of this board just eliminate posts they don;t like? Old habits die hard when the colonials revolt, eh?
G Gilly

This thread was discussed between 25/01/2017 and 02/02/2017

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