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MG TD TF 1500 - Gold Seal Replacement XPEG

I assume that the tag on this engine shows that it is a Gold Seal Replacement engine.

What can you tell me about it?

Any documentation available about the original engine number and chassis? The engine number stamped into the block above the medallion was removed when Morris rebuilt it as a Gold Seal engine.

Any suggestions for a modern gold paint that will approximate the original gold color?

The engine is in a club member's TF that he bought in boxes. The head is an AEF118 TF-1500 head. I didn't check the block number. The chassis number is in the 2000's, not a TF-1500.

I have seen a few photos of Gold Seal engines with rectangular tags. Also one on the MGCC site with a round tag, but no center "XPEG" identification.

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211


LM Cook

Interesting post. Gold Seal engines are not common. I have never seen this tag before either.

I suppose the likes of Tom Lange and a few other engine gurus will have comments.

It's also interesting that they ground the cast number off. Since a back yard MG "dealer" did a warranty swap on my engine, they just pried the old tag off and put it onto a new block. The original block number is still stamped above my octagon tag.
Christopher Couper

Interesting topic. I am following a similar topic on the MG TD Enthusiasts facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/157334069474/permalink/10158948105774475/

This one is even more odd. TD has an engine ID on the firewall tag, but not only no tag on the engine. No area on the side block.

So either an early TD motor, or ?
Bruce Cunha

How do you know that the original number stamped on the block is removed ? This number can be very faint. I think you should remove the red paint.
Mine had a thick green and a red layers over the gold paintwork.
Laurent.



LC Laurent31

It seems like the more that I research Gold Seal replacement engines, the less that I know. How to separate fact from lore?

I saw the post on MG TD - Enthusiasts Facebook group that Bill mentioned. It also had a link to engine photos that included a Gold Seal rectangular medallion and a circular medallion.

Both photos show a second rectangular attachment that shows bore and crank specs. The club member's engine did not have the second attachment nor any indication that one had ever been on the engine.

An undated Classic Car Buyer article by Jack Grover posted on mk1-forum.net provided some info that may or may not be substantiated by other articles and experts. [See attached PDF.]
http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?t=24535

Anyone have factual information about the history of Gold Seal engines?

Lonnie
TF7211


Top: Rectangular Medallion, Arthur Vowden replacement XPAG SC engine

Bottom: Round Medallion, 168421 block but Gold Seal engine in a late TD with clear markings - photo Will Handley





LM Cook

The T Register has been doing some research into replacement engines for inclusion in Roger Wilson’s book on the Technical History of XPAG engines. It’s not straightforward and we don’t have all the answers by any means, so many thanks to Lonnie for bringing the subject up.
Lonnie’s link to the article on Gold Seal engines shows that ‘real’ Gold Seal engines were produced by BMC in the later 1950s, but replacement engines were produced by Morris Motors much earlier than that and are usually stamped as such with an engine disc and rectangular plate. We don’t think they were painted gold. The rectangular plate usually gave information about bore and crank sizes, but were produced in a quite a number of differing formats and this continued into BMC days. Sometimes the engine disc was a restamped version of the original, sometimes it was a round disk with a new engine number. We have seen these new numbers beginning with a ‘B’, ‘C’, ‘’G’, RU’ and ‘RS’ - we haven’t been able to decipher what these mean as yet except make an obvious guess that R stands for replacement. Quite often the original engine number was left stamped into the block casting above the engine disc.

The two photos below show an unusual replacement engine disc courtesy of Douglas Donaldson, where the original disc was restamped, and another non brass square disc.

David





David Wardell

David: On the first TD ID plate was this block new to this TD? So the ID plate was just over stamped and then that new engine found it's way onto another TD?

It would be interesting to know which car the block came from and which it ended up on. And also what block/engine ID the receiving car had to begin with.
Christopher Couper

Chris, the engine disc is with the original chassis - TD/5092 EXLU. It’s located on your side of the pond and probably has always been so. You can see the engine stamped into the block metal. Which begs the question of
1. Was the engine shipped to the UK for its rebuild (unlikely)
2. Was the engine rebuilt by the local MG agent/garage using a standard ‘How to recondition an XPAG engine’ manual issued by MG/Morris Engines/BMC including the codes to use. Except the local garage didn’t have a rectangular plate on which to stamp the latter so they used the original disc instead (more likely).
All complete conjecture of course.

Whilst this can of worms is open, have a look at the photos below of the casting date of this AEF 117 block. The block clearly shows the casting number of AEF 177, the casting date shows 4C0, and the foundry casting lozenge shows a W.

I can think of three explanations
1. The casting date is March 1950. Surely too early for even an experimental XPEG block, and the casting logo shows a W - T Type engines were not cast at Wellingborough until mid 1951.
2. The casting date is March 1960. This would mean that BMC cast some spare XPEG blocks as replacements as late as 5 years after the TF finished production.
3. The casting date decoding system is wrong.
I’m inclined to (2). This engine is in Australia and was rebuilt, resulting in what was probably a local rebuild tag.

Incidentally, Darryl Lamb in Ireland has an Irish CKD TF1250 which had a BMC Gold Seal replacement engine which was actually came as an XPEG engine! He’s repainted it in resplendent gold paint. If he’s not reading this I’ll give him a nudge.

David
David Wardell

David - how could I get a copy of that "How to recondition..." pamphlet? I confess I have never heard of it!

Many thanks. Tom Lange
MGT Repair
tlange@acadia.net
t lange

Ah Tom, I feel I’ve just invented another of those MG myths which will come to accepted as lore ...
But it wouldn’t surprise me if something on those lines existed at some time.

David
David Wardell

Sorry to hear it does not exist. I'll keep looking for it!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

PS - SOME EX176 engines are also AEF117 blocks... If there are no water passages, it is an EX block.
t lange

Good point about the EX176 blocks Tom. I’ll check ...

David
David Wardell

I was contacted a few years ago by a former MG owner who found no water passages between block and head when his engine needed to be rebuilt- he did not realize it was an EX176 factory racing engine, because nothing had ever been written about them.

He sheepishly admitted that he fixed that "problem" by simply drilling new water passages in block and head like a regular XPEG engine...

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

My TD/C 9606 came with an XPEG engine with a similar tag. I have no idea when it came to be with the car or why except that it was prior to ~ 1971 which is the last time the engine ran prior to 2019. Interestingly, the XPEG block came with a an XPAG banana head which has since been replaced with a proper 1500 head.

J Cosin

I will add that I posted a thread on this in 2013. The thread is titled hybrid xpag/xpeg engine that contained this post from Mr. RA Wilson of Buckinghamshire (I hope I am not breaking a protocol by copying and pasting someone else's post!)

"According to my investigations, RS does indicate a BMC replacement engine, but it seems to have been used for both XPAG and XPEG engines. I have an email from someone with a BMC replacement XPAG engine (in a TD) with an RS number, but I also have an email from some one with a replacement XPEG engine (in a T type) also with an RS number. Dave Lawrence records seeing both RS and RL on Y type replacement engines from BMC, and presumably these were XPAG engines. The strange thing is that I have a BMC replacement XPAG engine that I took out of a Y type, but the engine number starts with a C. I also have details of two other replacement XPAG engines in Y types where the engine number starts with a C.
I think the plate was originally an XPAG plate, as on the XPEG plates, the dots on either side of TYPE are further away, and the XPEG letters are slightly further apart. It is puzzling that the third letter of the XP*G has been disfigured.
Although the block is an XPEG block, it would be interesting to know the bore size - has it been sleeved down to 1250cc? Also, there was normally another square plate fitted to BMC replacement engines, giving bore (over)size, crank size and part number, or later, just the part number. If the engine has such a plate, the part number would be of interest."

Having since fully rebuilt the engine, I can confirm that it is a 1500 block, one size overbore.

Hope this helps.

J Cosin

This is all fascinating.

In the end if someone is so inclined to write up what is discovered I can post it on the https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/ website and of course give full credit to the author(s).

This needs to be documented and readily accessible.
Christopher Couper

Well, the owner of the 1960 AEF117 block has now taken the head off, and the block has all the normal water passages.

It’s looking increasingly likely that this is an XPEG block cast in 1960 ...

David
David Wardell

And another XPEG block cast in March 1960.
This one is from an Irish CKD TF1250 which had a Gold Seal replacement engine shortly after 1960, only it came as an XPEG version. The owner has repainted it in its original gold paint.

David




David Wardell

This thread was discussed between 15/05/2021 and 23/05/2021

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