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MG TD TF 1500 - High torque starter - yay or nay?

I'm using the original Lucas starter in my TD. The engine usually starts almost instantly, but the starter occasionally jams and locks the engine. It is a quick fix, but the first time it happened it was very concerning.

I've also noticed that the starter chips the teeth of the ring gear quite badly.

I assume a new high-torque starter would solve the lock-up issue, but will it also solve the chipping problem? Is the solenoid/bendix drive a better product than the original?

I don't think I need the high torque, but that seems to be what is available.

I would appreciate knowing what other owners have experienced.

Thank you,

Jim Barry
Honolulu
J Barry

A jammed starter must have been a problem when our cars were new. The original owner's manual even has instructions for dealing with the issue. My 53 TD had the problem, complete with damaged ring gear, before I installed a new ring gear when I rebuilt the engine a few years ago. I'm still using the original starter and it hasn't jammed once since. I don't know anything about replacement starters. The original seems more than adequate to me.
Joe

Joe Olson

Yes. Not only do they spin faster they also draw less current. I’ve had one for 6 years on TD-4834 with a high compression XPAG and have had effortless starting ability. I bought mine from BPNW. Much less expensive than from the usual vendors
W A Chasser

It's a modern component with modern advantages. But you give something up also - the original vintage sound, and the obviously modern look under the bonnet. So it comes down to personal preference. I don't expect a cheap modern starter to last nearly as long as an original starter, but it should avoid the sticking issue since it engages the gear differently, and it will also draw less current when you pull the starter knob.

ALso worth noting is that the wear you're seeing took 60 years to happen. The parts will likely last another several decades with minimal maintenance. A bit of dressing with a file on the teeth might clean them up enough to solve your sticking issue, or it's also possible the bendix is sticking and needs to be cleaned and oiled.

If you decide to stick with the original parts, they can be rebuilt easily and inexpensively to new condition. Any automotive electric shop can do it, and the parts should be around $20 unless something is very wrong inside.
Steve Simmons

I cannot get my hand to release the starter pull knob fast enough.. original starter on a properly tuned XPAG will start it INSTANTLY.
Regards, Tom
tm peterson

Jim,

Your question is "Will a high torque starter solve your jamming issue" The answer is it may, or it may not. It all depends on the condition of the flywheel ring gear. Here are some details on the difference between the two systems.


The original method is called "Bendix" or "inertia reel" drive, the modern system is called pre-engaged.

1/ Bendix, uses a worm gear to move the pinion gear into the flywheel ring gear. This movement is generated by the rotation of the motor, meaning that the pinion is in rotation when it contacts the ring gear, causing wear on both gears.

2/ pre-engaged uses a solenoid to advance the pinion gear into the ring gear, Then (and only then) once the pinion gear is engaged in the ring gear, the starter motor rotates.

As you can see the Bendix system is prone to wear on both the pinion and ring gears.

In your case the deciding point is how much wear is there on the ring gear, if it is very worn then changing to a pre-engaged system won't help, as the solenoid (in some cases), may jam and not be able to move far enough to close the motor circuit.

As I mentioned, you need to check how much wear you have on the flywheel ring gear before deciding on how to proceed.


John

J Scragg

Make sure there is no oil in the Bendix, it collects crud and messes the starting.
A bit of graphite powder or ground up pencil lead will do the job.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Thank you, everyone. I should have mentioned that the ring gear is new. It seems brittle and the teeth chip instead of deforming. The new ring gear was probably not meant to be used with the bendix operation. Avoiding more damage to the ring gear is my main concern.

Jim
J Barry

I have a high torque starter and am very happy with it.
Dave Hill


Again, thank you everyone. Just to follow up, I found that Gustafson Machine ( http://gustafsonmachine.com/welcome2.html ) makes the units using Nippon Denso starters. They supply many of the retail outlets (BPN,LBC). The best price I found was at Classic Car Performance ( https://www.classiccarperformance.com/ ) at $190. Moss was not on the Gustafson list, so they might use a different supplier.

I think I'll give it a try.

Jim
J Barry

I rebuilt the original starter on my 55 XPEG and never had any issues with it, it also has the original ring gear. Could it be the starter in question isn't meshing properly? PJ
PJ Jennings

You need to ensure that both the ring gear and the starter gear have the proper number of teeth. I don't recall the number of each, but if they are wrong, the starer gear can jam, thus wearing or breaking teeth, as the ratio between the starter gear and ring gear is not a whole number.
Lew Palmer

The 8" clutch flywheel has 120 teeth and a 9 tooth
Bendix.
The 7.25" flywheel has 93 teeth and a 10 tooth Bendix.
They are not interchangeable and will chew the teeth.
(from the archive)
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

I think I have read from the Jaguar forums that the high torque starter has a pinion the engages from the opposite side of the ring gear, the non shaped teeth. Seems odd but some have taken advantage of this if the teeth are buggered up. Is that true with the high torque one that works with the XPAG?
John Quilter (TD8986)

Never noticed that, checked adverts and they do just that.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Moss only sells a 10-tooth pinion, and I've never seen a choice between different starters for the different clutch sizes, although the ring gears are different. On their site, Brown & Gammons indicate both ring gears are 120 teeth. The pinion for the HT starter does engage on the opposite (forward) side of the ring gear. The sellers say that it has never been a problem.

Jim
J Barry

This thread was discussed between 24/09/2022 and 30/09/2022

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