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MG TD TF 1500 - Holy Grail - Original Factory Red Engine Color

There has been a ton of discussion about the "correct" factory red engine paint, which has ended up being largely a matter of memory, opinion and guesswork. Even original engines with low mileage (there are preciouos few out there) have undergone color changes from being run, heated, and having road grime and gunk on them. What to do? Whom to believe? Which is closest?

Well, I have a solution! I have just bought (on eBay, of all places) a complete, NOS short block with all factory paint preserved. Ageing is the only thing that could have caused this paint to change color over the years, since the engine has never been in a car - it was bought by a North Carolina sports car shop in the 50's, and never used. It was listed as an "MG 1200 engine", but was clearly an XPAG, so I bought it and a bunch of NOS T-series parts, a Twin Cam MGA head, sump and (enormous!) timing chest. I confess I had no expectation that it really was NOS, but it looked pretty clean... Imagine my delight when I got it shipped here, that it had STD MOWOG pistons (but with stuck rings), MOWOG STD mains and rods, a late crank and TF rods - ALL NOS, and a blank plinth with no stamped engine number!

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! When I got around to putting it up on the engine stand I noticed those magical letters "AEF117", which makes in an NOS XPEG long-block! How many of THEM are there out there?

So I will get some paint samples at the paint store, and try to identify the closest color to this virgin, NOS, never-exposed to road dirt or grime, engine, and PERHAPS be able to settle the matter once and for all!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

WTG Tom. Perhaps you could convince your auto paint shop how important this information is and have them bring their paint color camera out and run it on the block. That will also give a mix formula if they have a newer paint matching camera.

Would love to know as I will be repainting my engine as part of the restoration I am starting.
Bruce Cunha

Incredible find! It will be interesting to see what you find at the paint shop. The only catch is that the color of the factory paint wasn't consistent. If they ran out of the usual shade, there's no way they would stop the line. The solution... send the shop boy down to the supplier and grab the closest thing they had. Probably fair to say that the shades didn't vary wildly, but if we could go back in time and look at all the MG XPAGs produced, then I wouldn't be surprised to find noticeably different reds from one month or year to another.

Since this effort is bound to be stressful, you should just send me that long block so you don't have to deal with it. ;)
Steve Simmons

And I’ll take the twin cam pieces of your hands. You’ll be able to breathe easier
W A Chasser

The definitive answer

http://www.mgcc.co.uk/t-register/captain-castor/captain-castor-issue-no13/

David
David Wardell

Excellent. Of all the colour shades, red pigments have had to change the most from those days when paint usually contained Lead based or Cadmium based pigments, which are banned now. Checking the colour with a spectrophotometer or colorimeter should nevertheless enable a pretty good match to be obtained. As said, the paint recipe may have varied quite a bit over the manufacturing period of the engine, but at least there will be at least one solid reference. Some variance around this shade should also be valid.
Dave H
Dave Hill

I think a NOS 1500 block is the holy grail, who cares about the color (haha!). Seriously, good work, and interesting to see what you come up with. Has anyone tried the base/catalyst engine paint from Abingdon? George
George Butz

Yesterday I went to get some engine paint. I started with the codes that Chris Cooper's list of paint codes. What I found was that all the codes were out of date. However, I picked up a can of paint a few years ago that has the same Dupont dulux code 57597H as is in Chris' list. It also has a notation that is for a 56 Cadillac Mandan Red. This cross referance to 53 to 56 Cadillac color number 50 Mandan Red. I had them mix some up and compared it to a color swatch that I sprayed from a can of Moss engine paint. The Mandan Red is a brighter red. The Moss color is darker and muddier.

Butch
R Taras

Butch,

Thanks for the information.

FWIW, I have collected information, pictures and magazine covers of original MG TD engine paint and 56 Cadillac Mandan Red appears to agree with most of them.

WHTroyer

That is why I recommend a modern paint match camera. The paint shop I use has the Valspar camera.

The computer can link to an on line data base with over 280,000 colors. This produces a color formula that can be mixed with current paints.

http://www.valsparauto.com/colors.jsp
Bruce Cunha

WH, that Caddy color is way brighter than any original paint I have seen. All original samples (perhaps 5-6?) have been "muddier", with a hint of mauve or almost purple to them. I realize age/heat/sun can change a lot, but my samples/recollection dates back to the early 70s. Photo is of original paint on water outlet and head off of two different engines, compared to Coke red. George PS- there is a splotch of modern red on the head, disregard that.

George Butz

This is still a good sample IMHO (TF 9052). And it's a good comparison to the MG Red body color which is almost identical.

Looking forward to Tom's sample.



Christopher Couper

Hi George.

A number of TD engines have original faded paint, but many show the brighter color where the paint was protected.

I spent many months collecting old (1950-1953) color pictures, brochures and magazine covers that showed new TD engines. My wife was almost ready to have my eBay account closed. :-)

And, put together a 70 page PDF showing engine pictures to document the color used as best I could. Whatever the exact formula, (IMO) it certainly was not the darker Maroon (which was used on later engines) and seen on many repainted TD engines.


WHTroyer

Whatabout Volvo engine red as used on B16 to B20 engines? Seems to be a very close match to the red colour use on XPAG and XPEG engines by the factory.
Most of us will not be able to tell the graduated difference for the Volvored v/s the MG engine red.

Ralph

TD 19435

R.S. Ralph Siebenhaar

This sounds like a good idea, however, I would like to take it step further.

If someone has access to a automotive grade photo spectrometer, then values from this, can be interpreted into Pantone numbers without (or with) brilliance or reflective values.

In turn, the colour components cane be determined.

I would be much happier with Pantone numbers, because Pantone is an industry standard. Having a name, like "Cambridge Red" can be inconsistent, depending on the supplier or how the colours are mixed. Pantone values are absolute.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

Many years ago I did an MGB conversion on an MGA and found that the oil filter can had original paint under a thick layer of oil and dirt.

Clutching this valuable part I took it to the local paint factors who scanned it and pronounced that it was exactly the same shade of red used by VW and called Gambia red.

I have used this paint on every early engine I have built since then and it does have that muddy, purplish hue.



Chris at Octarine Services

Tom, you have found the Holy Grail! Well done.
Jack Long

Tom,
I hope you won't mind, but the auction can still be seen at the moment, but probably not for much longer.
The engine can be seen here...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mg-Overhead-Cam-Parts-Along-With-Nos-Short-Block-Engine-See-Pictures/282694500895?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648

I use Rustoleum "Gloss Merlot"

Just repainted an engine bearer plate with that on one side and Moss rattle can the other, just to refresh my memory again after many years. The colors were pretty close. The Moss was flat/satin, like the auction engine, whereas the Rustoleum is definitely gloss.

Moss vs Rustoleum, like comparing apples to oranges. Picture shows cleaned block with old Moss paint job that started turning orangish. Brake clean finished turning it from an apple to an orange.


JIM N

Here's the Rustoleum Merlot, accented by Tom's brass core plugs.

This is long exposure and looks a touch darker than real, but flash makes it look bright red.

Next photo will attempt to compare what might be original paint to this Rustoleum.

JIM N

Had to use flash in this shot. The block seems a shade darker than valve & tappet cover, and head. It may be the original paint.

Rustoleum spray paint in the background.


JIM N

The block picture is cool. Note the divider in the rear waterway- think that is only on the XPEG, and the markings on the deck- one looks like .0005. I recall that the factory would measure each bore, mark and then match appropriate pistons to each bore to get exact clearance. Very neat. George
George Butz

I'm away for a week with my family, doing college visits for my son, but will be back after Thanksgiving to attend to the color match.

I'll call around to the paint and body guys and see what paint-match system they use, and will try to get more than one.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

What you are observing with the apparent shift in colour with level of illumination is known as the Purkinje effect. What appears to be fairly dark or even maroon in low light appears much brighter in daylight or with a camera flash. It particularly applies to red. The colour isn't changing, its the sensitivity of the human eye.
Dave H
Dave Hill

This thread was discussed between 16/11/2017 and 18/11/2017

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