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Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Improved rubber parts

I have just finished the mould to make new kingpin dust covers from quality rubber that won't rot like the repro rubbish on the market. This is the special tooling for my mate's injection moulding machine
Regards
Declan

D Burns

Another view

D Burns

Beautiful machining up of the mould.Brilliant!

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
R GRANTHAM

Declan - Thanks for taking the extra steps to make good parts. We here in the states are so tired of poor reproduction parts and having to fix things again and again because of the quality. Please drop me a note when you can regarding availability and pricing. Frank
FOG Frank

Declan - Please put me on your list for the new and improved kingpin dust covers. Thank you Dave DuBois
DW DuBois

That is great. Now how about the outer link seals and rack boots? Those have been suspect off and on over the years.
George Butz

George,
The outer link seals are already available in neoprene from B&G. I will discuss the rack gaiters with my mate when I bring him the tooling tomorrow. The mould for the gaiters could prove to be a bit of a challenge.

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Anyone heard of 3D printing as a solution to these parts ? I know the home versions use plastic which would be no good but I wonder if there are commercial versions that could print rubber. I know there are those which can do steel...

Dave
D Moore

Declan if you are doing a run of these can you put me down for a set. Thanks John Chester-Freeman
J.K. Chester-Freeman

I handed over the tooling yesterday and will post back on the progress.

George Butz,
Regarding the rack gaiters, I have sourced a renowned European supplier for the gaiters and have ordered some samples. I should have them in a few days and will post back. This actually looks quite promising.
The first batch of rocker cover gaskets for TD/TF and also seals for A Series engines eg Mini,Morris minor, Spridget in black neoprene has also arrived. These are cut on a CNC water jet and look very nice.

Regards
Declan
D Burns

George - Actually, NAPA sourced a set of gaiters for our MGB (that can also be used on the TD/TF). So far they have held up very well on the MGB. I'll look up the P/N and post it on here. Cheers - Dave
DW DuBois

DELCAN,
please include me for your new gaiters, I am looking to have my motor rebuilt over the winter, and I know it is going to be a "Domino Effect", and will eventually lead to gaiter replacement!!

Thanks,
Steve,
MGTD52 AT COMCAST DOT NET
Steve Wincze

Steve,
Will do.
Regards
Declan
D Burns

Declan,

The tooling looks great. Kindly include me for a set of dust covers when you do a run.

Dave
Dave Runnings

Declan:)
Please include me in your run of parts. Hope all is going well!
Best regards
Rod Murray
Rodney G Murray

Hallo Declan,that is a very interesting initiative. Please put me also on your list.
Danke schoen! Huib Bruijstens
bruijst@iae.nl
Huib Bruijstens

All noted,
We tested the tooling this afternoon but some fine adjustments still to be done. Here's a few pics of the dust caps for the Morris Minor and they look promising.
The ones for the TD/TF will be similar. The TD/TF tooling is finished.

Regards
Declan


D Burns

This photo shows the rocker cover seals in NBR (nitrile). The first batch has arrived. These are CNC water jet cut and the fit is lovely. They are slightly thinner than the cork seals and quite firm being shore hardness 70.
Installed on my car already-testing ongoing.

Regards
Declan

D Burns

Second photo

D Burns

Here are the high quality steering rack gaiters. The samples arrived this afternoon. I am really pleased with the quality.

Regards
Declan

D Burns

Something I would be interested in Declan would be a high quality soft tubing for connecting the radiator to the thermostat on a TD. That four inch section of hose needs to be much more flexible for ease of installation and removal!
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey,
That is no problem. Just use a silicon TD hose available here:
http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/our-products/

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Today's efforts. Experimenting with various materials. Things are picking up.
Regards
Declan

D Burns

Closer.
The quality is good and I am quite pleased with the outcome.
Regards
Declan

D Burns

Here's the first TD/TF dust caps which were moulded this afternoon. We are very pleased with the outcome-no further adjustments required.

Regards
Declan

D Burns

Second photo.

D Burns

Declan, would also like to get a set of the new and improved kingpin dust covers. Thanks, Bill.
W. H. Troyer

Declan, fantastic that you also could make such beautiful steering rack gaiters. That tooling must be a true masterpiece. Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Hi Declan,

Could you please put me down for two sets of the kingpin seals and two steering rack gaiter sets - I need one set for the TD and one for the TF1500.

I am always amazed at your fabrication skills and know-how.

Congratulations and thank you,

Doug
DLD

Declan, do you have prices yet for the gaiters? I plan on getting some, it's just that my to-do list is filled with other stuff right now (Engine rebuild, reinstall, new floorboards, water pump and much more).
Geoffrey M Baker

Yes, I'd also like to purchase a set of the gaiters and the kingpin seals, please.
Kevin McLemore

Huib,Doug,Geoffrey,Kevin,
I didn't make the tooling for the gaiters as it would be very complicated. I have sourced a supplier who can supply these and the samples I received are really good quality. They are European made by a renowned bearing manufacturer. I do not wish to disclose the manufacturer's name at present. They are available immediately but the cheapest I can sell them at the moment would be 30 Euro for a set of two to cover my costs. I am trying to obtain a better price for a bulk order.

The TD/TF/MGA dust caps are yet to be road tested but should be available in the near future. I want to be 200% certain that they fit on the inner diameters before selling.

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Put me down for the swivel seals also. May be a good idea to soak in grease/oil to make sure the rubber holds up? George
George Butz

Declan, please add me to your list of those who would like a set of the gaiters. Thank you, Bud.
Bud Krueger

The best price I can offer for the gaiters at present is 29€ for the set of two which is roughly 31.20 US$ at the current exchange rate. International postage should be 3.45€ (~3.71 US$)as the total package weight will be below 0.5kg. Postage to be confirmed but that's what it normally works out at for small items. The German postal charges are actually quite reasonable.

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Great work Declan. I have a part I'd be interested in seeing produced. The pedal fume excluders. I've had them split in short order on both the TF (twice) and the TD I had here. I'd love to install one that would hold up.
MG LaVerne

I second LaVerne's comment. Would like to see a pedal fume excluder.
Rick

I will be over at my mate's factory tomorrow and will discuss it with him. It might be doable in black silicone.

Regards
Declan
D Burns



Hi Declan, I was waiting to finish our front suspension until you had more information/experience road testing the TD/TF/MGA dust caps. But, it appears they are at least several months away to ensure they are durable and I should go ahead and button everything up?




W. H. Troyer

W.H,
I am making some fine adjustments to the tooling at the moment but should have it ready this week.
I will also be doing the fulcrum pin seals. The drawings are already done. The main problem with the road testing is the weather here in the northern hemisphere. The driving season is nearly over. I am confident that the polymer we have chosen for the dust seals is correct and fit for purpose. The reason they fail is due to the lack of UV resistance on the repros. They crack up and deteriorate. I don't anticipate this problem.I will have final samples of the dust caps ready next week and would send out a few free samples if anybody will assist the road testing. Perhaps some of the guys in Oz could assist-where the driving season is only starting. This might accelerate the matter. B&G sell improved fulcrum pin seals if you are looking for them in a hurry as mine won't be ready for a while yet. We were busy working on the Morris Minor seals which we finished yesterday. Tee result shows for itself-see photo

Regards
Declan

D Burns

Thanks, Declan. I did send for the B&G neoprene pin seals based on the information you gave previously. Now, just need to get your swivel pin/dust shields. :-)

Guess I will treat the Moss swivel pin seals with 303 Protectant periodically and use red rubber grease. Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Declan-
Your nice neoprene rocker cover gaskets being thinner than the standard cork will not be an issue. I improvised a rocker cover gasket 2 years ago using a much thinner than normal cork material. Thinner than your neoprene and no clearance issues in my TC XPAG.
Duncan-
D mckellar

Declan. First, thanks for working on this. Nice to see folks trying to improve things.

My question relates to your use of "quality" Are you referring to the fit of the part? My issue has not been with the fit of the product, but with the composition of the material used to make them.

The rubber (or whatever is currently being used) deteriorates very quickly. I have replaced the wing window seals on my 67 B GT 3 times in 6 years.

Fortunately, my TD has not had to have any of the rubber parts replaced for many years.
Bruce TD4139 Cunha

Bruce,
My reference to "quality" means basically affordable and fit for purpose-choosing the appropriate material for the application and ensuring that it fits. As I mentioned above the main reason that exposed repro rubber parts fail prematurely is due to lack of UV resistance considerations in the choice of the polymer. The oil and grease are not really the issue-UV light, and those who did not consider it in the first place, are the culprits. It would be lovely to use materials e.g. Viton (FPM) for such applications but the cost is prohibitive and not justifiable in economic terms.
My aim was to find a suitable material for rubber parts that we make ourselves or choose a reputable manufacturer for other sourced parts like the rack gaiters. I do not source anything in the far east. You would not be surprised to learn that even since this thread was started that I have been contacted by far east copy cats offering cheap rubber. Yellow fever seems to be quite contagious!

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Thanks Duncan,
We have also not experienced any issues with the thinner seal. It fits quite nicely.
Regards
Declan
D Burns

Declan, not convinced that today's lubricants are not part of the seal problem. Modern greases have complex additive packages to control corrosion, friction, wear and swell; and they are probably not completely compatible with low quality Chinese rubber used in MG replacement parts (modern greases are formulated to interact with modern rubber and synthetic rubber). Chemical deterioration might indeed be a major factor.

For example, we see deterioration of seals in cars being stored indoors. Doubt UV is a major factor indoors to seals buried within the suspension. If UV is the primary cause of seal deterioration, then simply applying a UV and environmental protectant periodically will end the problem.

Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Bill,
You could indeed be right and I fully agree with your comments but any trunnion seals that I have examined seem deteriorate from the outside in that surface cracking develops. This is what led me to believe that UV certainly cannot be neglected in the choice of the rubber.

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Does anybody have an original trunnion lying around?
I am looking for the dimension of the groove for the fulcrum pin seal seat. I have a seal here that I have measured up but would like an accurate measurement of the actual groove.

Thanks
Declan
D Burns

Declan, you might consider another product: steering wheel draft excluder. These are currently made of leather which is pretty expensive. I wonder whether a good silicone product might not be an improvement.
Geoffrey M Baker

Declan, I have several trunnions open in a box.

Original swivel pin seal groove - Mine measure 0.157-inch inner and 0.180-inch outer. Groove has a gentle radius. The outer lip is 0.075-inch thick.

Moss replacement seal groove - 0.082-inch inner and 0.156-inch outer. This has a pronounced v-shaped groove. The outer lip is 0.096-inch thick.

Not sure if this is what you want? Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Declan,

I replaced my seals last year with a set of aftermarkets that came with the car. They were in Moss packages and according to the PO they were from the 80's. That's when he purchased most of the parts to restore the car. He lost interest and they sat in his shop for years. I just noticed they have the same cracking you refer to after less than one year of exposure. Exposure has been limited to my shop lights. No UV and no grease added as yet.

I took a look at my originals (at least 42 years old) and they have similar cracking. Maybe there is something else at play here.

If you have interest in my seals you are welcome to use them. But based on what I see in my new pieces, I'm thinking about putting them back on.

As an aside I also see my Bump Stops have the same cracking going on. But they have been sitting under spring pressure for about 6 months.

I would be very interested in purchasing a set of your seals and gators when you have them ready to go. Would be nice to replace them now before I put the wings in place.

Dan
Dan Nordstrom

Declan, sorry, you want the fulcrum pin shoulder:

Original fulcrum pin shoulder has a 0.334-inner width and 0.392-inch outer width (has gentle inner radius). There is also a 0.056-inch outer radius at the end of the shoulder.

Moss replacement fulcrum pin shoulder has a 0.250-inch inner width with and a 0.380-inch outer width (has large inner radius). There is no outer radius and the shoulder is cut off flat.

Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Thanks Bill,
That's exactly what I'm looking for.

Dan,
It is strange indeed. We will run some tests with various oils, grease water, UV... etc.
The gaiters will be here tomorrow. I have just made some minor changes to the dust cap mould and will test inject on Saturday or my mate will do it early next week.

Regards
Declan

D Burns

Bill,
I think I explained it wrong. I mean the depth of the groove that the seal (Item 7) sits in in this link.
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/t-type/steering-suspension/front-suspension/front-suspension-td-tf.html

Regards
Declan
D Burns

Hi Declan, I don't think there is anything else to measure on my trunnions. :-) Someone else will have to help.

The diameter of the trunnion shoulder is 1.251-inch on the original trunnions and 1.251-inch on the Moss replacements.

My original trunnions and Moss replacement trunnions do not have a groove for the fulcrum (part 7) seal. They have a flat "shoulder" with various radii that the seal fits against.

The total depth (width?) of the original trunnion shoulder is as given previously - the original shoulder has a total width of 0.448-inch measured from the outer edge of the trunnion to the inner edge (0.058-inch concave inner radius + 0.334-inch flat section + 0.056-inch convex outer radius).

The depth (width?) of the Moss replacement shoulder is as given previously as 0.380-inch measured from the outer edge to the inner edge. The outer flat part is 0.188-inch wide measured from the outer edge with a large inner concave radius giving the total 0.380-inch measurement.

Appears to be considerable dimensional variation between the old and new parts (and maybe between different years?) My original trunnions were manufactured in 1951.

The outer diameter measurement of the trunnion should not matter. Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

By outer diameter of the trunnion, I mean the rough casting/forging dimension, not the machined shoulder where the seal fits. And, I assume you want the measurements where the inner part of the seal fits over and against the trunnion (part 4), not the outer washer (part 49) that has a convex radius for the outer part of the seal.
W. H. Troyer

Yes Bill the diameter of the machined shoulder -that would be brilliant. Any chance of posting a photo of the trunnion without the seal and with the seal fitted. I will then post up a CAD drawing of the seal before I make the mould core. Thanks for all the assistance.
The mould I made for the Morris Minor trunnions is similar. The trunnion seal is just a ring. It doesn't extend over the forged part of the swivel but seals against the machined shoulder. These seals turned out really well.
Regards
Declan

D Burns

Declan, will post pictures tonight with measurements. Weather is good now and I am striping paint from the MG's brake backing plates and painting them.

The machined diameter (where the seal fits) of both the original 1951and Moss replacement trunnions is 1.251-inches.

Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Declan, sorry quick Blackberry images (poor camera). This is the original 1951 trunnion. You can see (i) the convex radius at the outer end, (ii) the wide flat seating area and (iii) inner concave radius. Dimensions are as previously posted.

W. H. Troyer

This is the Moss replacement trunnion. The (i) outer end is 90 degrees (no radius), (ii) a short flat section and (iii) the large inner concave radius.

W. H. Troyer

Dan, I think the cracks you're finding on the outside may be due to a phenomenon known as "Ozone Cracking". It's quite common on old tires. Ask young Google about Ozone cracking.

Oh, and Declan, I'd also be interested. Got all the parts for fitting the PCV valve but haven't had time to try it out yet as I don't like rain!

AJ

AJ
A R Jones

AJ,

I think you nailed it.

Dan
Dan Nordstrom

Thanks Bill,
I have converted your measurements to mm and this is the first CAD draft. What about the thickness of the thrust washer and cup washer and the total width of the trunnion?

Alan,
What parts are you interested in?The gaiters are scheduled for delivery this afternoon.

Regards
Declan


D Burns

Declan,

Trunnion Part 4

The WSM trunnions specifications are 2.325-inches wide +/- 0.0015-inch wide (59.06mm +/- 0.04mm)

My original trunnions are 2.325-inches wide

The Moss trunnions are 2.325-inches wide


Thrust Washer Part 47

The WSM thrust washer specifications are 0.066-inch to 0.068-inch thick (1.68mm to 1.73mm thick) and 1.250-inch diameter

The Moss replacement thrust washers are 0.065-inch thick and 1.250-inch diameter


Seal Support (Cup Washer) Part 49

The Moss replacement seal support is 0.025-inch thick

Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Declan, for the sake of completeness:

According to the WSM, distance pins should be 2.337-inches +/- 0.0015-inch (59.36mm +/- 0.04mm)

"When the swivel links, distance tubes and thrust washers are assembled, the TOTAL end clearance between the link and thrust washers should be 0.008 to 0.013-inch (0.20 to 0.33mm)."

I have the original thrust washers and seal support washers, but did not measure them because they are worn.

Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Declan, sorry, there is one correction needed for the WSM specified trunnion width:

The WSM trunnion specifications is 2.327-inches wide +/- 0.0015-inch wide (59.11mm +/- 0.04mm)

My original trunnions are 2.325-inches wide

The Moss trunnions are 2.325-inches wide



Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Thanks Bill,
Last but not least the cup washer? Then I will have the drawing complete. The thrust washers are defined in the Workshop manual-I should have looked in there in the first place.

Regards
Declan

BTW The rack gaiters have just arrived.
D Burns

Declan, Seal Support (Cup Washer) Part 49


The seal support's metal thickness is 0.025-inch

Outer cup diameter (which fits into the rubber seal) is 1.506-inch

Outer cup shoulder diameter (which fits into the rubber seal) is 1.349-inch

Inner cup shoulder diameter (where thrust washer fits into the cup) is 1.303-inch

Total support seal thickness (outside to outside) is 0.1214-inch


Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Declan, the seal supports are stamped and the metal thickness appears to be less where it is stretched during stamping to form the cup. (1.349 - 1.303 = 0.046/2 = 0.023-inch)

Regards, Bill
W. H. Troyer

Log Entry 376.A1 - Random thoughts from Chief Mechanic of W.I.F.E.S. MG TD. MG Date:14_11_2015

Final assembly of the front suspension is complete today. It was noted in re-assembly there are significant differences in the Part 7 seal area between original and replacement trunnions. You don't need a micrometer to see these differences (seal groove, outer lip radius and thickness). You only need to spend a few minutes wrestling new seals on both original and replacement trunnions.

We decided to replace the swivel pins on her car and the lower RH trunnion due to water damage while stored by PO. Being a physicist by trade and embracing symmetry, also decided to replace the lower LH trunnion. IMO, a Part 7 seal designed for the original links WILL work on replacement links. But, it will experience considerably more stress during installation with associated strain during use. It will also most likely have a reduced lifespan before cracking/splitting.

Might be beneficial to take these dimensional variations into account when designing new rubber parts (for example, the Part 7 seal). Slightly revised dimensions would produce a seal that works well with both original and replacement parts. Might even be a selling point.

Picture below is of Part 49 Seal Support (cup washer).

W. H. Troyer

Here's what we have so far. I hope that it will fit the original and the repro trunnion.
Regards
Declan

D Burns

Just wanted to mention, if you are presently rebuilding your front suspension like us (and need parts now), all of the rubber parts are already available in Neoprene rubber (swivel pin dust seals, fulcrum pin seals and steering rack gaiters - gaiters also came with a new, sealed steering rack :-) ). You just have to do a little looking. We ordered all three and are using them in our suspension.

Neoprene offers good to excellent UV protection, good physical resistance (impact, elongation and abrasion) and moderate chemical resistance (can be damaged by some oils and greases, oxidizing acids, esters, ketones, chlorinated, aromatic and nitro hydrocarbons). So, use safe oils/greases and keep the outside of the rubber clean by periodically wiping them with a good protectant.

We also carefully machined the Moss replacement trunnion's groove and lip to better conform with stock dimensions and fit currently available shields. Regards, Bill
WHTroyer

Great rocker cover oil seal from Declan - should work really well.
Just a word on the ageing of rubber. Yes UV is a factor, and so is swelling and chemical attack from solvents, oil, grease, etc., but the biggest factor is probably ozone attack. Nearly all the rubber types discussed above are from dienes, that is they have carbon to carbon double bonds in the polymer chain. These are very susceptible to ozone and if you live in the South West USA or Florida, these are hot spots. Combine high temperatures, UV exposure and ozone and rubber won't last very long. Well compounded rubber will have additives that afford some protection, but if its made to the lowest cost then the product lifetime will be very short.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Are the gaiters still available? Cost to USA?

Thanks.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter,
The gaiters are still on hold and will be until my early retirement starts-76 more working days and the rest of today.
Regards
Declan
Declan Burns

Declan,

Please add me to your list for your gaiters and king pin dust covers for my TD and TF.

Charlie Adams

charlieadamsmg@gmail.com
Charlie Adams

Charlie,
The gaiters are not available at present and I can't say when, and if they will be available. You are welcome to have the kingpin, fulcrum pin, rocker cover and side cover seals.

Regards
Declan
Declan Burns

This thread was discussed between 19/10/2015 and 23/08/2016

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