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MG TD TF 1500 - “Matching Numbers”

I continue to be amazed that this charade called matching numbers, is still an issue.

I used to do T-series evaluations for a local insurance company, because I was the only one that could do it in French which is required in Québec. One day, I got a call from an insurance adjuster who was dealing with the claim for a T that had been damaged in a joyride. In reading my evaluation, he could not understand why I had not completed the section on matching numbers. This conversation spread out over a couple of days. Finally, I told him I would come and visit him in his office and explain to him so that he would understand.

I bought a blank car plate and a blank engine plate [brass octagon], stamped them with the numbers from my TF and drove to his office. I showed him what could be done to falsify these numbers and he finally understood. In fact, over the years, I have found two cars in which the car number and the number stamped into the dumb iron were different. In one case it was a wrecked car that had been fitted with a valid car plate. In the other case it was a stolen car.

However the issue that brings this to hand, concerns a local T-series that’s for sale, and a potential buyer is demanding proof that the numbers are matching. In fact, the sale hinges on this clarification; and I am reminded that this problem continues when our cars change hands, especially with collectors or those who require a guarantee on matching numbers.

On the TD and TF, matching numbers means absolutely nothing and somebody using this phrase in their sales material doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

Matching numbers can easily be verified. The dumb iron vs the Gauranty plate and the stamped number on the engine plinth pad for the octagon vs the Gauranty plate. Yes the plates can be repopped and restamped. But the repop plates are not correct for early TDs. At least none that I’ve seen. The engine number stamped into the casting is difficult to change. But careful sleuthing can determine whether or not the original block is with the correct chassis. All the info can then be verified through the Abingdon production records
W A Chasser

I agree, you can simply look at the number stamped into the frame, and then look up which engine should be with it. Or did they not record which engine went into which TD? I know they did on TCs. The engine number, I believe, on most TDs and all TFs, is also stamped into the block so you can't get away with changing the tag unless you're really good with stamping, and I don't see the value in spending that much time defrauding someone buying a low cost car like a TD.

That said, I did run into one legitimate engine where the numbers on the brass tag and on the block didn't match, but they were very close, just one or two off. So obviously a factory mistake.
Steve Simmons

You have both missed the point. Many owners of MGs, don't realise that the chassis number is stamped into the frame. When I say MGs, I mean all MGs made by Abingdon.

My point was not so much matching the stamped frame number with the car plate, but with the numbers on the car plate and the engine number plate, as its theses two numbers that can be fiddled.

Not all engine blocks have been stamped, and this includes my TF. We are in the exception. WE KNOW about these things, but as I indicated, many MG owners don't know about the number on the dumb iron, spring knuckle or bonnet hinge.

My point through all of this, is that many buyers and sellers, don't realise that their claim of "Matching Numbers" is not important, despite their belief that it is.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

If its important to the buyer, then it should be important to the seller.
Dave H
Dave Hill

These cars, in relative terms, are so low value....they are not Pontiac GTO’s no matter what the seller thinks. (Thank goodness)

“Matching numbers” claims appear to not have any real meaning in the MGTD market.

It won’t be that long before it will be difficult to find fuel for these things.

Regards, Tom
tm peterson

So, if I get this correct, all 4 pieces of evidence available, dumb iron stamping, warranty plate, engine tag/stamping and Abingdon production records matching does not mean anything?

I know I could alter a couple, lot of work in the dumb iron and I have seen a copy of the records, I think.

There goes any hope of my widow getting rich off of my demise as I did tell her the car was a “dinky di” MG. I even told her the name and profession of the first owner. I am going to have to call on that Aussie that gave me all the information all those years ago.

Never thought we would be caught.
P G Gilvarry

To some the numbers aren’t important. To others the numbers are very important and a cars value to some degree reflects that. The cars I have restored have their original engines. In the case of my TD MKIIs that fact is especially important to me and most likely to anyone who would be interested in a MKII if I were to offer them for sale. Just as a TF 1500 purchaser wouldn’t want to find an XPAG were his XPEG should reside. Maybe it’s of less concern in Canada and the UK but it is important to us Yanks. Since this is a T-series forum I wouldn’t expect generalizations of all models to be included. With the Gold Seal and dealership remanufacturing programs where engine transplants were a common means to return customer cars back in service overnight many cars lost their pedigrees. This makes those whose pedigrees remain intact a rarer breed. To some buyers, me included, pedigree is important. To a buyer, looking for that pedigree, they need to do their homework and Caveat Emptor.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
TD/c-8151
TD/c-16920
TD-19408
TD-24060
W A Chasser

As I have said before: So many of these cars had their engine swapped in the 50's and 60's in place of rebuilding them. It was much quicker and got the customer back on the road faster.

In some locations the engine ID was the VIN (my car in California is this way). This would present a real problem for folks that had an engine swap if the shop did not transfer the tag over to the new engine. And of course the stamped block and engine tag now would not match.

Then there was another set of people that wanted 1500cc engines in both TF 1250's and TDs.

But the real folks that push matching numbers are the 60's and 70's muscle cars. Lots of them had special engines with specific factory modifications that made them unique. Without the original engines you could find yourself in a sheep in wolfs clothing so to speak.
Christopher Couper

I can't agree that the numbers matching is unimportant to everyone, or even most people. A huge part of the reason people buy these cars is for the history, and having the same engine that Abingdon put in the car adds to that history and in turn, its market value. Not everyone knows where to find the information that either confirms or denies original parts, but that's what appraisers and other experts are for. I think more people care about having the original engine than there are those who don't. Just because they don't know where to find the info doesn't mean it isn't important to them, and that's why people are able to make a living doing the research!
Steve Simmons

I 100% disagree that "matching numbers means absolutely nothing and somebody using this phrase in their sales material doesn’t know what they’re talking about." Although it is a provocative assertion, it is not only incorrect, but doesn't really help matters.

"Matching numbers" is indeed a worthwhile goal for a T-series car, if for no other reason than it's the way cars came from the factory. To me, a car with matching numbers is the norm, and a car with non-matching engine is worth perhaps a thousand dollars less.

When a car has clearly been modified, numbers have been re-stamped, a different dumb-iron has been welded in place (I've seen it), or it is missing the Guarantee plate entirely, it's intentional, and the car should be viewed with suspicion. But when a T-series car has had the engine replaced it is almost always for innocent reasons, and nothing deceptive has taken place.

Like size, matching numbers DOES matter to anyone who cares about the authenticity of their car - perhaps it is a foreign thing. On eBay I once bought a TD/C engine; when I found the present owner of the matching Mark II car in the UK with a replacement engine, he could not have been less interested in regaining his original engine. Every MG enthusiast to whom I told this story replied that they would spend almost any amount to obtain their original engine, and I agree!

So if anyone knows where engine XPAG 582 from TB 0327 may be, I'll pay $5,000 for it.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tom I bet you would. But, I would expect a genuine TB XPAG to be worth considerably more.
W A Chasser

In Australia matching numbers probably would not matter to maybe 60% of T type buyers but I do recall expaining to one rather dissapointed owner that the only part of his TF that was "1500" were the two badges.
And another owner did not belive me when I told him that his TF had been converted to RHD untill on my suggestion he saw the welding marks where the LHD pedal box had been attached to the chassis (the I.D. plate had been restamped as if it were a RHD export). Reproduction I.D. plates are a golden opportunity for anyone wanting to 'improve' their cars provenance. I have seen a few where the colour code was changed so that the TF was now in an 'original' colour. Fortunately I have yet to see anyone master the stencil-engraved prefix on an original TF plate and the repros are easily spotted if you know what you are looking at.
M Magilton

I mentioned it before that my 55 TF is a number matching car. It makes a difference to me and was one of the reasons I bought it, even though it needed a complete nut & bolt restoration. I can see that there could/are some fakes out there with re-stamped plates by some unscrupulous seller trying to make an extra few bucks. The sad part is the car isn't what the buyer thought he/she originally bought and they're stuck with it!
PJ Jennings

Tom, I took possession of a TC engine once, because the owner replaced it with a gold seal. He had no interest in keeping the original and was literally ready to scrap it. So I brought it home and put it on a stand, and told him that if he ever sells the car, give the new owner my number.
Steve Simmons

My car has suffered as Matthew M pointed out.

Originally it was black so HDA, at some stage it was painted red and a tag created to HDC and it was subsequently licensed that way in Australia.

When I bought it over to the USA I took all sorts of documentation with me and the easiest was to roll with the punches and go with HDC.

I have a HDA tag, maybe one day I will try to change the documentation, in the interim I have documented the changes, it is still the car built in 2/22/55 with the same engine it left the factory with, and I am driving it which is even more important, to me, today.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

For some of us, matching numbers is either not an option or unethical.

My TD suffered a catastrophic engine failure and was not salvageable. I kept all the usable parts and the engine tag.

I replaced it with an engine that was about 2000 newer, but still an early TD motor. So basically the exact same motor, but with a different engine number.

When I rebuilt it, Yes, I could have ground the number off the block, renumbered it, and put the old tag on it. How much will matching numbers impact the price when I sell it, I don't know? But my conscience will be good, and I will be able to document why the motor was replaced.
Bruce Cunha

I don't think a non-matching TD will take much of a hit in value. They are very common and not worth a lot. Only someone who is into history, or into concourse shows, would make a big deal about it. And there are enough matching and non-matching for everyone who wants them. Now if I were buying a 60's Ferrari GTO, then I would insist on a matching number car if possible.
Steve Simmons

Best to for all to be as honest as possible. We are a handful of people in the world that would have a good chance to verify a car. I don't think most T-series cars are valuable enough to really do a quality job of altering the numbers. A few years ago, I was asked to evaluate a TD for sale. Nice older restoration. The ID plate had been grossly stamped with an engine number (which was in the car) way too late for the chassis. The numbers ran out of the box and were a mess! Due to my research, the owner sold it stressing that it was not the original engine and that the plate had been altered. With all things equal, there are buyers who want the original lump that came in the car and would pay more. Where does that stop? Correctly date coded dynamos, starters, regulators and wiper motors? Really doesn't matter for the most part. In fact, I'm looking at the upper half of the ID plate (all that was left) from TF HDA46/7613. The car was repainted red at restoration and we kept the original black color code number on the repop plate. Our knowledge is useful in other ways. I looked at an obviously early TF for someone and the dealer salespeople insisted that it was a 1955 and were rather rude to me. I crawled under it, looked at the chassis # which matched the plate, looked it up on my iPhone and found it was actually an early TF made in '53. The older mechanic then comments to the salespeople "so that's why it has a 1250 engine and not the 1500". Then they started listening to me! George
George Butz III

One of our local “everybody gets credit” places had a MG TD advertised a couple of years ago. Went on the website, first glance, kit car, second glance, poor copy kit car.

Drove over in the TF, he was adamant it was the real thing. Asked if I could look at the left dumb iron, it wasn’t there on a VW pan.

Showed him what a T series was, couple of days later it had a sign asking $6,500 vs the $14K from my visit. I actually think he was intent if trying to fool somebody.

That was in the “seedier” part if town.

BTW, the as never mentioned year of manufacture.
P G Gilvarry

This thread was discussed between 05/07/2021 and 09/07/2021

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