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MG TD TF 1500 - MG History

Time to learn some mg history. https://www.youtube.com/c/ShelburnefilmsMG
tom scott

Tom -

Thanks for the link. I'm sharing it with the members of our club.

And thanks to David Shelburne for producing the series. Really well done.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

http://www.youtube.com/c/ShelburnefilmsMG
efh Haskell

Tim, you evil beast :-) Now I'll be watching U-Tubes for the next three or four days instead of working on my Honey-Dos. Great videos! Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Yes indeed, some awesome stuff here :)
Geoffrey M Baker

good fun
mog

Trouble with history is that it's all too often "his story"! Just viewed the first short & was surprised to find it perpetuates the furphy that M.G. stands for Morris Garages. I've written to the producer & passed on my research showing that this is NOT the case. If no less an authority than the father of M.G. Cecil Kimber says M.G. does not, nor did it ever, stand for Morris Garages, then that's good enough for me! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter, my thoughts exactly as the "Morris Garages" story was told. I thought of posting about it but thought instead to go get some popcorn for the coming scenes ...
;-)

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

OK, guys - I'm still a newbee. What does MG stand for?

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie - this may be the most complete compilation of material on the subject in a single place:

http://www.mgnuts.com/mgname/

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

I think that in the beginning it undoubtedly stood for Morris Garages. This would be the case as back then M.G. was a souped up Morris and nothing more. As time went by M.G. developed their own vehicles and it became a well known brand in its own right. Kimber wanted to maintain this distinctness so denied the link with Morris and said that M.G. was a brand in its own right. Maybe in Kimber's mind it was so, but of course in reality the disassociation with Morris is nuts, M.G. always came from Morris Garages and always will.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Modern Gentlemen

:/
W Chang

Modern Gentlemen?

No, no. Money Gone
readlist

Mr Daniel's letter which is reprinted on the website Bobby quotes is what had me intrigued & led me to undertake further research. The bottom line is if Cecil says "M.G. stands for itself & is not an abbreviation of Morris Garages" then that's good enough for me. Everything else is just perception & conjecture.
Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The brand M.G. did come to stand on its own, as Kimber said, but its origin was always Morris Garages. You can't change history.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Jean Kimber Cook often said her father was adamant that MG stood for itself. Cecil, a graphic artist was obsessed with the shape of an octagon. He had an octagonal table, and panted the letters MG on it, because he liked the look. So, according to the creator of MG, MG stands for itself.
D. Sander

History Dave? It should be remembered history is often simply the perspective of one person or group telling it like they THINK it is. I’ve always believed that reality is what you perceive it to be. 10 different versions from witnesses to a car accident illustrates just how reliable “history” can be. The primary source here is Cecil & is confirmed by his daughter Jean. Anything else is simply conjecture. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Thanks to David Shelburne for making these!
Surprised to learn how close he lives to me.

IMHO: I am of the camp that believes Cecil & his daughter Jean in that M.G. stands for M.G. and not Morris Garage.

Being that we both work in the Video industry maybe we will get to discuss this at some point? (Wouldn't be the first time Producer and Audio disagreed about something! LOL)

David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

Whatever it came to stand for, its origins were in Morris Garages.
Otherwise it might have been called P.Q. or T.U. or F.G. or any other combination of letters that you care to come up with.
Abingdon was my home town, I grew up there, family and friends worked at MGs. Everybody in the town knew it came from Morris Garages.
Dave H
Dave Hill

The first M.G.s were modified Morris cars. This is true. M is the first letter of Morris, this is true. M is the first letter of M.G. This too is true. Cecil Kimber, when asked stated "M.G. Stands for itself." Cecil's daughter Jean confirmed this to be true. Everything else is conjecture. Sometimes fiction is perpetuated for so long it is assumed to be factual, when it is not.
David
D. Sander

There sure are a lot of Daves involved here! David Shelbourne has emailed me back & is very keen to pursue this so as David Sheward is also willing to take this further & lives close to Mr Shelbourne & as Mr Shelbourne would like this to be the subject of a short film & have someone present Cecil's view on camera, maybe you (Dave Sheward) could send him an email & arrange a meeting. His address is on his website. Richard Knudson, who is something of an authority on M.G.'s & has written a few books on the subject & who also shares Cecil's view, has been cc'd in on our emails. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This should stop this tirade of opinion.

I have described this pre-war factory published book in another thread, but clearly some have not understood what is written so I have scanned the cover, an inside page, the first text page and an enlargement of the subject text.

A pre war factory publication while Cecil Kimber was the Managing Director of M.G. See image text bottom left.

In the film clip a Young Mike Allison described the facts as they were, he worked at the factory had use of the archives to write books. I would not argue with him.

Anyway this book was published pre-war while Kimber was Managing Director so it is reasonable to assume he sanctioned the book and must have known about the text as he would have agreed with it.

This is not an opinion nor mine it is undisputable factory published fact.

I realise this book is rare and it is not widely known but it must form part of any factory research as it describes M.G. at that time. Has anyone researched trade marks?

David, the fiction you are perpetuating is indeed fact and yes the Morris Garages has been around "so long", since the beginning actually.

Rod Brayshaw

a front page

Rod Brayshaw

text page

Rod Brayshaw

Richard Knudson is the co founder and chairman emeritus of The New England M.G. register, Ltd. He has done extensive research that concludes M.G. Simply stood for itself, NOT Morris Garages. Here is some more reading on the subject.
http://www.mgnuts.com/mgname/
David
D. Sander

front cover

Rod Brayshaw

Rod,
The "Fiction that I am perpetuating" is, in fact, the very statements made by the Founder of The M.G. Car Company, Cecil Kimber, and his daughter, Jean Kimber Cook. I am mearly citing primary sources, the very primary source and his daughter who, both, on numerous occasions stated M.G. Stands for itself.
David
D. Sander

David, I am not disputing M.G. stood for it self, it absolutely did Jean Kimber-Cooke told me so personally.

Even the book I have described states this, it also states undisputedly the link to it's origin, Morris Garages, and so does the second and third paragraph of your mgnuts link.

"The letters for M.G. were chosen as a tribute to William Morris and his company, Morris Garages. Cecil Kimber, while working for Mr. Morris in the 1920’s, began building custom cars from Morris chassis. "

text taken from mgnuts beginning of second paragraph.

M.G. had to come from somewhere.

It is clear that Dick and I have a copy of the same book.

My one and only assumption is when the trade mark was applied for M.G. was then the company name.
Rod Brayshaw

The confusion lies in the fact that the letters M.G. were chosen because of the company Morris Garages but did not STAND for Morris Garages. They are a name in their own right. The letters were not chosen at random, but they do not stand for anything. At least not according to the person who came up with them. Who would stand face to face with Cecil Kimber and argue his own word on the matter?

Morris Garages was the name of the manufacturing facility, not the cars that were built there. And the name of the company that built M.G. cars was "The M.G. Car Company, Ltd."

All told, it was a confusing and in my opinion poor choice of names for his cars.
Steve Simmons

Well I'm glad we got that sorted. :-) M.G. just kinda rolls off the tongue though Steve don't you think? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Steve, then how do you explain the advertisement by Morris Garages that was published in the "Morris Owner" March 1924 edition that had the first published M.G. Octagon in each of the four corners. The cars were Morris Oxfords with special coachwork. The connection M.G. and Morris Garages is obvious, its black and white.

All vehicles produced up to 1927 had Morris chassis numbers and Guarantee plates.

It was not until the 14/40 was produced for the 1928 model year that the M.G. Car Co commenced the issue and use of their own guarantee plates and chassis numbers.

The above is FACT, not my opinion, go check this out.

Steve, please show or indicate where I can find the facts in your claim as "not STAND"

Go take another look at my post of original factory literature stating where the letters M.G. came from, FACT. No confusion.

The 14/28 had a radiator badge that read Morris Oxford with a blue M.G. octagon in the centre.

This was a change from the previous radiator badge that had "The M.G. Super Sports around the outside with Morris Oxford and the cow in the centre.

All the M.G. cars produced before 1927 were produced by Morris Garages as Morris Oxford's and had Morris chassis numbers and guarantees. M.G. Car Company did not exist then.

Cecil Kimber was a marketing genius, but you cannot ignore the facts.

Rod Brayshaw



Ok, so MG stands or stood for Morris Guarantee. It's all clear to me now. Nuff 'said

Jim
James Neel

"Cecil Kimber was a marketing genius, but you cannot ignore the facts"
So... Does this mean that we can take him at his word, and his daughter at her word and all agree that M.G. stands for itself? ;-)
David
D. Sander

I think we can all agree that "M.G." stands for M.G. or maybe something else. Jud
J K Chapin

In the material that I have read to date on the subject perhaps the least controversial way in which the relationship between M.G. as a name and Morris Garages has been expressed was this:
"M.G. refers to Morris Garages."
Morris Garages was a dealership in Oxford where Kimber had the first MG's assembled, there being no room to do so on the main Morris assembly line. Components from various suppliers were assembled there into M.G. Car Company products while retaining identification with the Morris brand.
In effect, the "M.G." pointed to their assembly point more than to company name.
As Kimber said, M.G. could not stand for "Morris Garages" as there was already a company by that name.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

What you have to understand is that coach building was popular in those days, and some manufacturers would use a complete chassis purchased from another maker, body and trim it, and sell it as their own brand. Peerless used a TR-3 chassis, but that doesn't mean Peerless stands for Triumph. So while Kimber was using Morris chassis to build his cars, the completed products weren't Morris cars, nor were they "Morris Garages" cars, of which no such thing existed. Morris Garages was essentially the name of a building.

Cecil Kimber was indeed skilled at marketing, and I suspect the letters were chosen early on not just as a tribute to the man who got him started, but also to play off his boss' success. It came to haunt him for many years however, as he spent the rest of his life correcting the misnomer that M.G. was an abbreviation. Apparently suggesting as much was a sure way to get on his bad side.
Steve Simmons

Dream on. M.G. came from Morris Garages and even Kimber's opinion couldn't change that.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Marketing Genius...

That's it 😀

🇬🇧
JL Nederhoed TD3966

Reminds me of the circular, and sometimes vitriolic, discussions that take place on one of the Jaguar sites where some folks disclaim XKE as an American invention and that E-Type is the only proper name. There's also a tizzy every once in a while about the pronunciation of Jaguar-- Jagwar or Jag-u-ar.

Do y'all really want to be comparable to Jaguar owners? :-)


David Littlefield

Not to digress or to dip my toe into this mess, but just to correct the record re Peerless...

The Peerless GT did use the Triumph TR's front wishbone and axle assemblies, but they made their own space frames out of welded-up tubes and the rear axle setup was very different, employing a de Dion rear suspension. I know this because my long-time car buddy used to own one. Here's a Peerless frame:



kmclemore

Just caught your earlier question Rod, sorry I missed it before. If a car has a Morris guarantee plate, then the chassis is a Morris, not a Morris Garages. There was no car named Morris Garages, it was just "Morris" (also Morris Oxford, etc), built by the company "Morris Motors Ltd." Owned by William Morris, who owned a sales and repair facility called Morris Garages. It is here where Cecil Kimber first placed custom bodies on Morris chassis for racing use. As I understand it, the early creations actually had Morris badges on them, obviously not M.G. badges since no such company yet existed.

I'm not aware of anyone disputing that the letters M and G were chosen because of the firm Morris Garages where Kimber built his first cars. They absolutely were, and Cecil Kimber himself said so. And since Kimber created and named the company, I don't understand how his statements on its origin could be mere opinion. I guess it depends on a viewpoint I don't quite comprehend.

Something slightly unrelated yet interesting to think about are the early Kimber creations (his race cars), before M.G. existed. Since he used Morris Chassis to build them, in today's world I would call them Morris Specials, just as when anyone highly modifies a T-Type and calls it an M.G. Special.
Steve Simmons

kmclemore, you're absolutely correct. My apologies! It was TR running gear, but not the frame itself. But hopefully the point still came across! I was actually thinking of a friend's Peerless which I confused with another of his obscure possessions, a Warwick (formerly Peerless Cars Ltd). This particular car was built on a TR-3 chassis by the factory.

What an odd and sometimes confusing world these old cars are. But just when you think it's tough, try going back to the teens. There are 600-page books that can't get it all straight!
Steve Simmons

Hmmmm... well, I've not seen a Warwick, but I'm pretty sure they, too, had a custom chassis, Steve. The Warwick came after he Peerless after they went belly-up... essentially they just bought the whole car works with all the chassis jigs, body molds, etc.
kmclemore

Came from? Absolutely. Stands for? Definitely not! Which brings us back to the point I made in my first post. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

OK, just to pour some water on this troubled oil, I notice that most posters type "M.G." whereas I've always thought (probably incorrectly) that it was "MG" [no periods]. The presence of the periods makes it look like it's the initials of something. Just wondering which is correct - periods or no periods? Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

JK, the periods are part of the name (which makes it even more confusing in my opinion) so if refering to the company, you include them. If referring to a particular model, you may leave them out, such as MG MGA. If you look at the company letterheads, the full, official name of the company is spelled out as "The M.G. Car Company Limited"

kmclemore, this particular car started as a TR, so it's a special case. As I recall, it actually has a Triumph maker's plate on the chassis. Another interesting and confusing history there! Just the fact that it's in the USA is unique as far as I know. Happy to send photos off-list if you're interested.
Steve Simmons

Periods period. If you read the letter mentioned above on the M.G. Nuts site Jud Mr Jonathan Daniel of Northumberland, a contemporary of Cecil & the author of the letter, explains the significance of the dots perfectly. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Interesting discussion. After reading over the posts, it is clear to me that the M.G. Car Company is just that M.G. I would bet that the registry papers just say M.G.

I can only surmise, but I believe Mr. Kimber was just stating that the car company is M.G. and that officially, it is M.G., not Morris Garage.

There are other similar examples that can be given.

The British TVR. The car is a TVR. which is said to be an abbreviation for the first name of its founder Trevor Wilkinson. The original company was Trevcar Motors. This later was changed to TVR Engineering. So while the name of the car company may be an abbreviation for its founder, the actual car company is TVR.
Bruce TD4139 Cunha

I think we can chalk this up to English as being a fairly ambiguous language. Just the way we phrase things can have a huge difference in meaning. And to top that off there are many words in the English language that are their own opposites :-)

http://mentalfloss.com/article/57032/25-words-are-their-own-opposites

I think the phrase "Morris Garages - whose initial letters forming the trademark M.G." could be certainly interpreted by any sane person to imply that they in fact were an acronym for Morris Garages.

But in this context it is hard to tell what Mike Allison was really trying to say. It was not like he quoted "In an interview Mr Kimber, he told me that M.G. stood for Morris Garages".

That would be a smoking gun ...
Christopher Couper

This thread was discussed between 01/05/2015 and 09/05/2015

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