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MG TD TF 1500 Nuffield paint chip booklet BBS discussion at MG-Cars.info
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MG TD TF 1500 - Nuffield paint chip booklet
| Arrived under heavily armed guard this afternoon came a 1949 Nuffield paint chip booklet with all colors for Morris, MG, Riley and Wolseley covering 1949 and 1950. It is on loan from a friend’s library and I’m to guard it with my life. It is extremely fragile. Chips for Ivory, MG and Autumn Reds, Clipper Blue, Almond Green, Sun Bronze are just a few of the colors. It will go well in getting modern formulas for California Legal paints. Sorry but the costs to make other US available formulations is just not practicable. Bruce and I will be going to our PPG Paint jobber in the coming days. Of interest to Bruce will be the Almond Green for his TD and possibly Sun Bronze for the benefit of others. I will be focusing on the reds for future projects. In my case, MG red for grill slats and Autumn Red for TD/c-16920. I already have an Ivory formula made up when TD-4834 was refinished. When formulated with satisfactory results they will be passed along to Chris Couper for addition to his “the Original MGTD” website as reference material. As the booklet is so extremely fragile I won’t be opening it up but for its research. It will be returned to its owner very quickly but for now it will stay closed, warm and dry until the weather improves
Now if anyone has a 1951 factory chip book that has SSG to loan out.... Bill Chasser TD-4834 
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| W A Chasser |
| A rare find! I hope the owner is keeping it safe for a future caretaker. Not many of those left. If he ever wants to sell it, we have an early M.G. organization who would be happy to archive and digitize for future reference. |
| Steve Simmons |
| Bill: Any chance these pages are bound by the three hole bands like the shop manual is? If so with the owners permission we could just bend up the tabs and take the individual pages out one by one and scan them. Let me know and if you want to come up we can do it pretty quickly and safely. Just email me if you want to do that. |
| Christopher Couper |
| Bill, does the book 'only' consist of color chips, or does it have the formulas for the color as of its date? Just scanning/copying the colors with a conventional scanner adds a significant uncertainty. A professional, spectroscopic scan would be ideal. Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| As Bill pointed out. I though my car was originally Sun Bronze. I spent a lot of time tracking down owners of TD's with what was called sun bronze paint (the brassy looking cars). It was not sun bronze.
With the help of people in Germany and Australia, I have a paint card of ICI 032-2027 sun bronze and a piece of a firewall from a sun bronze MG Y (with the section under the number tag, so as close as I probably can get to original unmolested paint. I will compare these to the book bill has and if they are the same color, I can have our local paint shop match it. They charge $40 to match paint and $80 if you want the formula. As I have gone to a lot of work tracking down the Sun Bronze color, I figure spending $80 to have the formula that others in the US can use, is worth it. I will also pass on the information to Chris so he can add it to his reference material. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Chris the booklet is not ringed like a binder. It is only ~ 2”X 3”. Each page is a 2x3 chip on its face. The backside identifies the color and car manufacturer it was available on. I am meeting with Bruce tomorrow and making a day out of going to Jerrys Paint in Jackson to pick up my batch of SSG and to discuss my further needs for the Reds. I’m not confident that I can fully open the booklet without damage to the pages and spine. I will attempt to photograph all the pages but digitized pics will not be accurate by any means as it is dependent on ones particular computer settings etc. I’m not a computer geek so can’t explain the problems with the process. No one should rely on a computer interpretation for comparisons. The type of lighting used is a big issue even when having a chip to compare with freshly mixed samples. This is why Bruce and I are going to great pains to try and provide accurate usable formulations for present and future reference using available pigmentations in today’s world. Note that this effort will be solely made with current PPG products that are available in our region and will only be US based paints. These likely will not cross over to PPG products outside the US and will only be for the particular PPG product to be mentioned. These will all be custom mixed and therefore are not based on any stock paint formulas in a PPG chip book. The formula will not cross over to other products within the PPG line of paints. We will openly provide the individual formulations that we are working on. Bruce had reported to me that there was an active formula for Almond Green based on PPG color stock. Whether or not it is accurate to the original color only time and cash outlay will tell.
Even spectrometer views of the chips are not perfect. It ll give a close analysis but I can tell you that I had this process performed on several SSG samples. The first was based on the original paint on my car and the second from a modern usable formulation and spray out card provided to me by Bob Howard. In both cases the spectrometer couldn’t interpret accurately what was presented. The latter I had a formula in hand for the spray out. The problem likely due to the iridescent quality of SSG. This will also affect Almond Green and Sun Bronze for the same reason. Also the finest aluminum used today in metallics is not the same texture as what was available 70 years ago. With the use of flattening agents it will reduce the effect of the modern metallics to mimic the finishes of the era. I should add that TCP Global claims to have formalas for all its product lines. I had contacted them multiple times to try and get sample spray outs of the SSG and reds. I was met with a brick wall. They were unwilling to provide chip samples and I wasn’t willing to spend close to $1k buying pints of paint and the ancillaries to do my own spray outs of the three colors I was requesting. A service they should absolutely be providing to its restoration customers. They were not helpful and I won’t recommend them. Several people on this site met with more cooperation from TCP Global, but one shouldn’t have to shoot craps to find out a product isn’t up to a customers standards. If any one is willing to help defer costs for a particular PPG formula while I have the booklet in my possession I will gladly have a formula made up to add to Chris’s website. This offer is short term as I must return the booklet to the owner before damage occurs to this very rare and fragile factory booklet. I estimate that it will be returned to its owners library within the next 15 days. By 15 March, 2018 it will no longer be in my hands. Cheers Bill Chasser TD/c-4834 |
| W A Chasser |
| What would be really useful would be a list of colours from current cars that are very similar to original MG ones. My TF is painted in Toyota colour and when parked next to other MGs looks just the same. I can however buy touch up pencils and aerosols from a local motor accessory shop Jan T |
| J Targosz |
| Bill. If you have time and the inclination to do so, I think it would be well worthwhile making a list of the many colours that I am sure are listed, and any information attached to them. Particularly that which is relevant for MG vehicles, of course. When I obtained my swatch of BMC colours for 1954 - 61 I was stunned by how many there were, and how distinct they are. Some of our our biggest parts suppliers try to give the impression that numerous individually named paint colours are different names for MG Red (for example), when they are no such thing, they are distinct shades.
Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| This is a really interesting thread and quite a find! I think Jan T has made a very valid point. With all the costs involved and the short time frame needing to return it, matching the booklet with modern paints seem to be the best idea? At least the colors will be preserved after you return the booklet. Be sure to photo document whatever you can when you go to the Jerry's. Everything you can contribute to Chris C's MG website will be awesome. Best, Frank TF1414 |
| Frank Cronin |
| Suggest find someone with a good DSLR ( likely Nikon or Cannon), and shoot a couple pictures of the chip in mid-day daylight in the shade. Use the "RAW" or in Nikon's case, the "NEF" (Nikon Electronic Format) setting, as that captures all of the light from the sensor unaltered. By definition, the common JPEG pictures are compressed and altered. A Nikon JPEG and a Cannon or phone JPEG will not be exactly the same color. Hope that makes sense. That would give you an accurate digital record of the color, realizing it would look different on different monitors, etc. While time consuming, if your paint jobber has chip books that go back several years, you could try to match a current formula to something as close as possible. George |
| George Butz III |
| I wonder if there is a way to photograph a color chip with a color master photo made up of industry standard RGB colors? Perhaps when others looking at the photo of the color chip and the RGB master could see the original color of the chip by adjusting their monitors to render the master to RGB. I know there are members here who were involved in the photographic/graphic arts industry. Perhaps they can comment. Tim |
| Timothy Burchfield |
| Measuring colours is a very inexact process and not for someone without the exactly right equipment and knowledge. A photo-spectrometer for instance, is not a precise device. All measurements are made against a white standard, the sun being that standard, which is 6500°K. But even that , is not absolute, as any measurement of colour, must dial-out reflectence and that is almost impossible to do.
In view of the time constraints for these valuable samples, I suggest you get some professional help in getting the accurate and correct values for those colours that are of interest to us. Konica Minolta (https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/) have done a lot of work to make commercial colour measurement available to mortal folks like us. A quick call to them in NJ (888) 473-2656, might save a lot of time. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gord Clark |
| Jan’s suggestion is noted. However I simply do not have the time to devote in searching through thousands of PPG stock and OEM chips. Sifting through the nuances of tints within basic color ranges is mind numbing and best left to the individual car owners to compare with their own finishes.
This effort is to aid those who are doing total refinishing of their cars and wish to have a source for a working formula to be custom mixed at the point of sale. The individual components and their volumes will be made available for Chris Couper’s consideration to “the Original MGTD” website once I am satisfied with the end results. If anyone is interested in assisting in the format as I have described above I welcome their help. I will get a quote as to the costs per color but should be less than $100 per. Once I’m done with what I’m doing and Bruce does what he is willing to do our efforts will be done, unless others step up to defray some of the costs. Today was productive. After meeting with Bruce at his home we travelled into Placerville to meet with a paint shop to see if they would be willing to paint my car in pieces. The owner said he could but they are slammed with insurance work and are back logged a month at the moment. We discussed what my expectations were and I think we have a game plan. I said I wouldn’t be ready in 30-45 days as I have prep work to do and need better weather to work in. So we seem to be on the same page as to a start time. We then travelled to Jackson and Jerry’s Paint to pick up the SSG I had mixed. I also picked up a quantity of clear, catalysts and reducers to complete the job. The paint is a single stage but I want a clear overlay to give added protection to the color finish. In essence making it a two stage paint. The reason for going this route was due to the usable formula I had was a single stage paint only. Total cost about $1900. Usied as strictly a single stage would have been closer to $800. When mixed the SSG will make about 1 -1/2 gallons of sprayable material not including the clear coat. While there Bruce had them make several ounces of Almond Green based on the PPG formula on Chris’s site. This is a stock color and easily made. It is not metallic/iridescent like the Nuffield chip. He will spray it out next week and do a dry comparison to my sample book. No attempt was made regarding either of the reds as these will have to be custom blended requiring more time. I will take it to my local Jerry’s for this job as Jackson is an hours drive from my home. I’m sure Bruce will chime in later. Cheers Bill Chasser TD/c-8151 |
| W A Chasser |
| Bill: I am more interested in the actual book vs the quality of the samples. My wife has a great DSLR and lots of different lenses. She has some lighting capabilities but it is more limited. We will be home all day tomorrow if you want to swing by on your way back from Jerry's. Just take Latrobe Rd on the way back. email me if you are interested. And double pack it in zip lock bags tomorrow as we are supposed to get soaked. |
| Christopher Couper |
| Some interesting finds in Bills Nuffield book. The Almond Green is metallic.
I did note that in the MG Y site they list a non-metallic and a metallic Almond green. None of the PPG numbers listed for these colors come up on the US computer. The Almond Green on Chris's site for PPG 47705 still comes up as a PPG color Almond Green. I had the paint shop mix a small amount. It is not metallic but looks close to the Nuffield color. I will spray out a Part and see what it looks like dry. The surprise was the Sun Bronze. I have a piece of a MG Y firewall with the section where the ID plate was. I also have a spray metal plate made from ICI 2027 Sun bronze done in the 1980's. The Nuffield color card is almost a perfect match for the ICI paint card, but not as close to the paint on the firewall plate. Given this, I will use the ICI plate to get a formula for Sun Bronze using the US paint system. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| This picture shows the blind side of a TD fuel tank. The car had been resprayed a few times before being dismantled in the early 1970s, but no paint applied to the blind side. Bill, as best as you can tell from a computer image, does this look close to the paint chips? Matthew. 
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| M Magilton |
Another shot which is reflecting a little of the blue of the sky.
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| M Magilton |
| Lastly, a shot which is more camera flash. Matthew. 
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| M Magilton |
| That was the original color of my TF Matthew. |
| L E D LaVerne |
| It's funny that all the toys have the tomato color. This is probably one of the biggest reasons most people think the cars should be a brighter color red. The perception of a red sports car is more like the tomato color than MG Red and lets don't even start on Autumn Red.
It's also interesting how much the color changes in various lights. It can go from a blueish maroon color to almost the tomato color depending on how much light, the type of light and it's angle of incidence. The worst color by far is when it is under 4000k fluorescent lights. I used to describe the red as the color you would bleed if cut and you had been keeping your iron levels up. :-) |
| Christopher Couper |
| Shooting the chip in open air with a camera is not really the way to go. A known and stable light source with a calibrated color chart included in the same scan is the only accurate way to record the colors IMHO. And no matter how precise the scan, unless the computer monitor you're viewing it on has been finely calibrated as well then you will never get an accurate representation. And even then, most computer monitors are not evenly lit across their surface, and change color and contrast at off-angles. In my opinion, producing a sample chip of new paint and comparing it with the original is really the only good way to do this.
The monitors I use in my profession cost $10,000 for a small one, and even they aren't calibrated for this kind of work. And the cameras are over $100K and still require human input to color correct. All that said, when it comes down to it the color chips in that book are the "color of the week" from when it was produced. Had they made the chips a month before or after, they would probably vary slightly. Especially with low-end cars like M.G.s, they didn't worry too much about color accuracy from one batch of paint to the next. Guaranteed, a 1948 red car would be slightly different than a 1949 car, simply due to variation in the shade of what they received! Period paint chips are still a great help though, in getting as close to original as possible. I have some paint chips here that were color matched to factory original samples about 40 years ago. But I've compared them to known original cars and the color seems slightly off. So yet another case of color shift from one car to another! |
| Steve Simmons |
| Hi, Really enjoyed your spot on comments Chris C. re the MG Red colour. My belief also is that the MG Red colour of say TCs(46-49) was somewhat varied to the MG Red colour in 1953-55 for TFs. Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| Rob Grantham |
| Yes, the response of the human eye is to shift to the blue end of the spectrum at lower light levels. Hence some red shades appear to change from maroon red in low light to bright red in full sunlight. It is known as the Purkinje effect. There could well have been some drift in colour over the years as colour matching was done manually back then. Even if a reference standard stayed the same, the person doing it will have changed from time to time. However my experience was that they were pretty good at spotting and correcting differences on a day to day basis. I recall that there used to be (and no doubt still is) an identifiable range of colour shades that were claimed to be discernibly different by a good human eye. I saw a selection of colour chips from it once (I think from ICI who had one of the first spectrophotometers) and I can say that discriminating between them was very difficult, though a good colour matcher could.
Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| I am not sure if this is not just a urban myth but back in the 70's when I was having some painted mixed they told me red was the most difficult to match. They claimed there were more red shades than any other color. |
| Christopher Couper |
| I wouldn’t like to say for sure, but there certainly seem to be more red shades in the period BMC colour swatch than any other colour. Not true these days though as red seems much less popular than it used to be as an auto colour (Ferrari’s excepted!). Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| In my experience, red is definitely the most difficult to match. I re-painted an entire car once after a couple panels were damaged, because it was a custom color and I knew we would never get it right. |
| Steve Simmons |
| The factory paints were not consistent when new, and the pigments were so unstable that the colors went through considerable color shift almost immediately. Also, cars were routinely repainted at the dealership before sale as a new car, either due to damage in transit, poor quality paint, or customer/dealer preference for a difrent color. Compounding this, period methods of photograpy were not accurate. Anyone who used to shoot Kodachrome will tell you that reds, yellows, browns and greens look vastly different on Kodachrome than they did in reality. While Kodachrome was not accurate in color representation, it was stable. Most other film suffered considerable degradation quickly. Just pull out those Ectachrome slides from the 1960's. They have faded considerably.
Print film was not much better. The accuracy depended on the skill, and bias of the kid in the photo hut processing the prints. Even if the color balance was accurate, there too the colors did not remain stable. I always recommend people spend time to get the color they think the car should be. I very carefully had the old English white computer matched on my '53 TD. The computer spit out a code tat is the same as a Ford truck color. Decide what color you want, paint some test pieces and look at the color inside, outside, on sunny days and on overcast days. Feel free to tweak the color to suit your taste. Today's urethane paints have very stable color, and will retain their color infinity better than the old paints these cars left the factory with. |
| D. Sander |
| In my experience the stability of the pigments used back then did vary, but they were certainly not all bad, and the majority were quite good. Far more were inorganic based than now. If there was a weakness it was mainly in the maroon shades that probably used lake pigments, which are not great. As for the greens and blues, they mainly used phthalocyanines as we still do today. The cellulose base was certainly less abrasion and weather resistant than modern paint resin. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| Great advice from Mr Sander. Get the closest match you like and then don't stress about it. Frank TF1414 |
| Frank Cronin |
| Yesterday I was back at Jerry’s Paint Supply in Sacramento. This time to make up colors for MG and Autumn Reds. Completed the MG Red in PPG Omni two stage making up a qt of color which will then make twists of sprayable to be followed with a clear. This will be used to paint 5 sets of grill slats I have.
The Autumn Red we were unable to make using the Nuffield chip as a sample. The chip was simply too crazed to make a good comparison. So now I’m on the hunt from the MG community for A working formula and or spray card to use for sampling. Handling these rare Nuffield paint chip pages made me very nervous. The booklet has been packed away and is being returned to its owner before something detrimental happens to it. A big “THANK YOU!” goes out to Bob Howard. His SSG spray card and formula loaned to me was a great help. Although a few others shared their formulas it was Bob’s that was the only active formula still available. Bob’s chip has been safely packaged and on its way back home as well. I now have until the early part of April to prep the body panels for paint. The madness has begun in earnest to make the timeline as I have tentatively arranged for a highly recommended shop in Placerville to spray the SSG to loose parts. While that is being done final work will be completed on the tub and doors to follow. Fingers crossed, I will be doing the final body assembly in June Bill Chasser TD/c-8151 |
| W A Chasser |
| Bill: If you get a chance it would be neat to compare your MG Red with my car. It was color matched in the 1970's and I also put it next to a number of other original and color matched MG Reds and it was certainly within tolerances if not spot on. |
| Christopher Couper |
| Chris getting a perfect match was quite difficult as the color of the Nuffield chip would shift depending on the angle of the natural light source. Lucky and I decided to use what appeared to be the mid point spectrum of the reflected surface. It’s the closest we were able to come up with. If your ever have a need to come to Sacramento just give me a ring and we can set up a time. At this point I’m in a mad frenzy trying to get body panels massages before I hand off parts to the paint shop the first week of April. With the changeable weather we are expecting it has made my work more stressful as I have a lot of work to get done. In the next two months so that I can also get the tub and doers delivered
Bill Chasser TD/c-8151 |
| W A Chasser |
| Bill, if you get a chance, I have posted a question and photos above. Cheers, Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
| Interesting this
I have just been through this matching up the yellow on my '70 Lotus Back then the yellow had a lot of lead in it and although the paint shop can match it perfectly with modern paint, as soon as the outside light changes the rate of change between the old and new paints is noticeable It is most noticeable if you turn on a fluro or led light We have scanned it a few times in different light situations and the pigment that changes is the yellow/orange(2425), not much,but everything else stays the same, but she's averaged the scanner results and I'm happy with the result Most paint shops ,I would think would have scanners now, You could take the chips in and get a modern paint formula printed out instantly willy |
| William Revit |
| It’s called metamerism. The original pigment was a lead based pigment called chrome yellow, which is no longer permitted. Modern paint recipes tend to use entirely different organic (carbon based) pigments - azo types, etc. The spectral properties of the two pigment types are different under different illuminants and its a matter of prioritising the match under (simulated) daylight. Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| Thanks Dave--You are obviously on top of this
It's interesting to me as the last time I went to the paint shop I was served by a girl that I thought was there from school for work experience, I thought, this will be drama but boy was I wrong, she was right into it like a mouse with a big block of cheese and wouldn't let go till I was happy -She spent ages polishing the bonnet and scanned it inside the building ,outside, lights on lights off until she had probably 6-7 scans to look at and the yellow was the one that changed- Then she averaged the results and came up with a formula to mix up I'm super happy with her job--well done Cheers willy |
| William Revit |
| Way back in my career with Polaroid I had the pleasure of sitting on a few light-related subcommittees of NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology, formerly NBS). One had to do with defining commercial colors, including automotive. One of the toughest ones was to define auto painting by the California folks who had created cars whose apparent color was different depending upon whether the vehicle was approaching you or heading away from you. That's about the time that I decided that it was time to retire. Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| Matthew. I hate to make comments based on digital images for the reasons that have been mentioned above. The best answer I can give you is a possible yes. My guess would be MG Red as Autumn Red is much darker and in the verge of being closer to Maroon.
William. We tried the spetroanalysis at the paint jobber but it wasn’t that helpful. It would not give an exact match this was especially true with the iridescent paints ie SSG, Sun Bronze, Almond Green. As both Dave and I have pointed out many of the elements in the original formulas simply do not exist anymore due to regulations. This is why I wanted to take on this project to aide others in finding suitable alternatives to arrive at finishes available in today’s world. There will come a time in the near future where we all will be using water based paints that will again require reformulation of the pigments used for that type as well. Bill Chasser TD/c-8151 |
| W A Chasser |
| "getting a perfect match was quite difficult as the color of the Nuffield chip would shift depending on the angle of the natural light source"
That's going to be the case with any painted surface in the open air. The only way to do this accurately IMHO is in a controlled environment, meaning controlled light temperature and calibrated samples. In the end, it's highly unlikely to exactly match any color, which is why the "blending" technique is used when repairing cars. You aren't actually blending the colors to event them out, you're feathering them into one another to fool the eye into thinking they match. |
| Steve Simmons |
| Thank you for answering Bill. Cheers, Matthew. |
| M Magilton |
This thread was discussed between 27/02/2018 and 11/03/2018
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