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MG TD TF 1500 - Off Topic: Engine Toast?

I know this is not MG related, but there are a lot of engine experts here so I thought I'd give it a try. My wife's 2009 Toyota Camry lost the oil filter and all the oil and quit on the road. We did not know that at the time it quit running. It would turn over but not start. I had it towed to the Toyota dealer and they said the oil filter was gone and the car "had no compression, and the engine would need to be replaced." The warranty is expired. My mechanic friend said that he believes that without oil, the car would have no compression. Is this true?
L Karpman

Who changed the oil. If a shop it could be theirs to repair.
this has happened to me with a quick lube out fit about 10 years ago.

M Grogan

A local mom & pop shop close to my house I've been dealing with for years. I don't expect them to accept responsibility, but I'll try. I'd really like to know about the compression question though.
L Karpman

I'm sure it has an aluminum block, it would probably be cheaper to get a rebuilt engine than have someone attempt to repair yours. When aluminum blocks over heat and I would believe this would happen, all kinds of problems arise. The head might even be warped along with the pistons being toast and possibly the cylinder walls. A ticking right after this happened could be the rod bearings starting to give out, could even have scored the crank, not a good thing. Sorry, PJ
PJ Jennings

Thanks PJ. Yes, I am aware of what can happen to the engine and what my options are. I just wanted to confirm (or not) that with no oil, the engine would show no compression, because that's all the dealership checked when they saw the filter was missing.
L Karpman

Yes, lack of oil can lead to loss of compression.
MAndrus

No thats not necessarily true. It may be way low because the rings wore a great deal but unless it totally destroyed something it would still show some compression. If you are really asking....If I fill it with oil will it show compression? ....the answer is probably not much more than what they saw at the shop.
L E D LaVerne

An engine without oil should still have compression. You said it turned over. Did any warning lights come on?

As for the Mom and Pop shop. They should still have insurance that would cover issues like this. Pretty hard to deny it was their fault if you have documentation that the oil filter fell off and they did the last oil/filter change. Properly installed oil filters just dont fall off.
Bruce Cunha

All of the usual warning lights lit up when the key is turned on, so as the engine did not start it's hard to know. We retraced the trip from the doctor's office to the point 1/2 mile away where the car quit. We found what appeared to be a slick in a spot where my wife "thinks she parked," but no trail of oil along the route back or any sign of the filter. Also, no oil in my drive way before she left home. I don't know I can "prove" the oil filter came off other than it said "no oil filter, and no compression" on the Toyota dealers worksheet. I am going to speak to the local shop Monday, but I'm betting on a denial of responsibility.
L Karpman

If the oil filter loosened up, the oil & pressure would disappear. The idea the filter took its sweet time to come loose and fall off is bulls..t.

If the engine overheated, the rings could yield under the heat and relax to the point where they don't expand to the cylinder, thus LOW compression. I've replaced rings on a bunch of overheated Hondas and they'll run like new.

An engine that looses cam timing can exhibit loss of compression but not suffer damage IF noninterference. Which engine?
Toyota
1.5L (1A-C, 3A-C & 3E) Interference
• 1.5L (3E-E & 5E-FE) Non-Interference
• 1.6L DOHC (4A-F & 4A-FE) Non-Interference
• 1.6L DOHC (4A-GE & 4A-GZE) Non-Interference
• 1.6L SOHC Non-Interference
• 1.8L Diesel Interference
• 1.8L DOHC Gasoline Interference
1.8L 7AFE, 4AFE, 4AF – Non Interference
• 2.0L Non-Interference
• 2.2L Diesel Interference
• 2.2L Gasoline Non-Interference
• 2.4L Diesel Interference
• 2.5L Non-Interference
• 2.8L Non-Interference
• 3.0L Inline 6 (Except 1998 2JZ-GE) Non-Interference
• 3.0L Inline 6 VVT-i (1998 2JZ-GE) Interference
• 3.0L V6 Non-Interference
• 3.3L 3MZ-FE V6 W/ V VTi – Interference
• 3.4L Non-Interference
* 3.5L V-6 Non-Interference
• 4.7L Interference
List doesn't even show the 2.4L 4 cyl, and there are a lot of contradictions, so I haven't figured it out, but some say they're both noninterference and that'd be good.

Running out of oil can generate a variety of damages, like siezed pistons, spun bearings, siezed valves... but compresssion loss is not usually the first symptom.

Doublecheck your crank/cam timing to assure the valves are timed with the crank events. interference or not, and give us your findings. Don't assume it is wasted just yet.
JIM N

Yeah
i agree with Jim
Being a timing chain engine you might be lucky and the lack of oil pressure on the timing chain tensioner could have let the chain jump a tooth or two or if loosing oil was a slow process it may have seized camshafts while the bottom of the engine survived on froth
It would be well worth taking the tappet cover off and checking the cam timing
I can't see overheating being an issue with rings etc as it's not a coolant problem you have, it's lube related
Did the oil light come on before it broke down
Good luck
willy
William Revit

I'd love to give you all "my findings" but I'm not an engine mechanic and would be just making things worse. I had the Toyota dealer put a filter on and add new oil. Made no difference according to them. I don't doubt them, as they really expressed little interest in replacing the engine or fixing it. No pressure from them to do so.

So I'm having the car towed to the nearby shop that changed the oil and filter last month at their request. When I asked if they had insurance to cover their mistake, all I really got was, "that's a grey area." So I'm not expecting too much. If they will not repair the engine, I'll having it towed to my house where it will sit until I can figure out what to do with it.

Bad luck comes in threes.

1. The Camry engine is, perhaps, toast.

2. My family and much of my wife's family live in Houston, which is flooding.

3. I sold the MG TD early this month to a fellow in Europe, and it's in a warehouse awaiting shipment in HOUSTON! :-(

What's next?
L Karpman

Buy a lottery ticket, your run of bad luck is over.
C I Twidle

Damn Larry...so sorry...
Gene Gillam

Sorry to hear about that, Larry. I'm planning my Lazarus run to my brother's (Bryan, TX) for Columbus Day. Getting to see you, and your TD, was penciled in. Bud
Bud Krueger

Update: Camry is now in the shop that did the oil and filter change for evaluation of damage. Not charging me for that, but have not admitted any fault as of yet. We'll see, but I doubt they will.

Good news. As far as we now at this time none of our family members in Houston flooded.

More good news on the TD. Talked to the warehouse in Houston this morning. While they are not back in operation yet, they said the warehouse did not flood and the TD was safe and dry. But I did email the new owner in Europe to carefully check for any water damage when it arrives. Ya never know. But, it's going to be substantially delayed in arriving I believe.

Thanks for all the info and wishes.

L Karpman

All the above sounds great, Larry...glad a bit of good news is coming to you.
Gene Gillam

UPDATE: More good news!

The shop that changed the oil and filter admitted that they put the wrong filter on the Camry and would do repairs at their cost. They said the lower engine was fine and sent the head to the machine shop. They replaced the head with a rebuilt (shop said it was cheaper than rebuilding the original head.) I haven't got a detailed explanation yet, but it had something to do with a cam bearing or cap dragging due to loss of lubrication and a it broke the timing chain. I'll know more when the tech that did the work explains it to me.

I'm no engine expert by any means, so as long as the car is running well, and it is, I should be OK. So much for the Toyota dealer's mechanic who wrote, "will need engine replacement." Not a very thorough check other than noting the missing oil filter and no compression, which is all they did.

Now the quest to replace the TD with something else. Looking at MGB's, but finding a good one isn't easy in my neck of the woods it seems. I've also considered another Miata (I've had 3), due to my growing inability to do the work on cars myself due to health issues, and a more modern car may be required that is easily worked on by good shops. I still have the "need" to putter around in a 4 or 5 speed, as long as it has the right exhaust note and fun to drive :-)

Thanks to all that replied to my dilemma.
L Karpman

I have found that the dealer techs do not get dirty. they are trained to replace instead of repair.
Was the guy under 25 years old?
>GRIN<
Sounds like you are getting a square deal from your repair shop.
Good luck.
M Grogan

You're a lucky man to have got away with seized camshafts--or the workshop was!!!
I've had Mazdas do it , that was what was behind my earlier comments
The bottom end of the Mazdas survive well from it but the cams seize earlier so it seems the Camry has done the same
Should be good
I wonder what filter they used to cause the problem

I think what happens without oil is that the bearing journals etc in the bottom of the motor are wide enough to hold"some" oil for a little while but where the cams run in the head ,some surfaces are very narrow and run dry quickly and the affected cam grabs and the timing chain or belt-depending on what car it is, jumps over teeth or breaks and the engine stops
Happy that it worked out ok for you

willy

MGrogan
A bit harsh on the young dealer blokes
I much prefer having alert young techs working for me ---must be different over your way - you don't have to get dirty to be a good tech, Respect for the customer and their vehicle is the key to a good shop and cleanliness is an essential part of that
William Revit

Might want to make sure whatever new(ish) car you get has a/c and water wings.
Gene Gillam

"Might want to make sure whatever new(ish) car you get has a/c and water wings."

Good idea Gene. When I flew the Gulf of Mexico for many years as a helicopter pilot I always had floats, either fixed or pop outs. Never thought of it for my car though :-)
L Karpman

Just going by what was said and my own exp.

"So much for the Toyota dealer's mechanic who wrote, "will need engine replacement." Not a very thorough check other than noting the missing oil filter and no compression, which is all they did. "

Without opening up the engine and inspect, most just replace the whole thing.
If you have the means well OK. But to just throw something out because it does not work is a modern thought.
Rebuild is harder and sometimes cost more. But rebuilding is always a better choice in my book. And it keeps me out of the bars.

he said with a >grin<
M Grogan

This thread was discussed between 27/08/2017 and 08/09/2017

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