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MG TD TF 1500 - Sport Coil?

I pulled out the coil that came with my TD. I have to test it to see if it works. I was wondering on if it was original.

It has a brass tag on it that says Sports Coil, Joseph Lucas LTD. Bermingham England. Moddel H8 (could be HS) 12V ER. TYPE 130 (could be 150) 8d (I think this is what is there).

It has the threaded end for the primary wire.

There is a tiny mark on the back end but I am unsure if it is a factory mark or a scratch.

Bruce Cunha

Not original but would be considered a period piece.

Problem with old coils is that they either work or don't. For the life of me I have never been able to find a way to test them except to put them on a fully functional car and take it for a drive to see how they perform. Every test I have seen never resulted in a valid result.

BTW I have never seen one of these before. All of the sports coils I have seen are much newer (ie 1970's).
Christopher Couper

If anyone has a working original, I would be interested in purchasing it.
Bruce Cunha

Hi Bruce,

Until about eight years ago, I ran a coil just like the one in your photo on my MG TC s/c race car (which does not have a generator). It seemed to work well when the battery had been freshly charged, but towards the end of a long race or in a second short race, the engine would develop a slight misfire. I replaced the coil with a modern "Bosch GT 40" unit and thereafter there was no misfire even when the battery was down a bit. It seemed that the coil had an issue with very slight voltage drop. Perhaps the coil was old and marginal or maybe that is how they were from the start.

Just checked the shed. Mine even has the same little up-side-down Mercedes Tri-Star on it. Mine is painted black too but I remember it was originally painted a gold colour.

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

You can measure resistance to see if the coil is likely to function properly, but that will really only tell you for sure if it's bad. In use, the coil heats up and the hotter it gets the weaker the spark gets. This is where an old marginal coil will start to misfire.

Bruce, I have a testing rig and would be happy to test the coil for you if you want to mail it down here. Of course you can always just put it in the car and go for a long drive on a hot day, and it will either work or not. But if you want to know if it's actually within spec versus being close to giving trouble, I can test that for you. I've also seen some older parts stores that have a coil testing rig so that may be an option.

I think I have a fully tested original TF coil here in the original box. If I can find it, I would also consider trading for the Sports coil, assuming it's any good.

Shoot me an email if I can help.
Steve Simmons

Great offer Steve. I will pack it up . Can't find your email in my computer. Drop me your address at cunhab52 at gmail dot com


Bob. Gold? that is interesting. Mine has always been black, I sanded it down previously and don't remember finding anything but black.

Well the wonders of the internet never cease. Here is the answer.

What a great article. It appears this may vary well be a period correct coil as it seems to have come out in the 1950's

http://www.bobine.nl/turner/11-tuning/lucas-sports-coil/
Bruce Cunha

Good article. But keep in mind that the resistance numbers are for original coils. Repros can be very different. For example the modern repro Q12 is spec'd at triple the resistance of the original.

I have a Sports coil from the 80's that has moved from car to car and just won't die. The newer ones unfortunately are not nearly as good. They weigh half as much and don't seem to last any longer than other cheap modern units. Then there is the pre-war glass coil I have that is still in service after 70 years! They just don't make 'em like they used to, even if you offer to pay them to make them like they used to.
Steve Simmons

Bruce: Great find on the Sports Coil web page. From the looks of it your coil seems to be from the late 40's or very early 50's.
Christopher Couper

Bruce -

I looked closely at the plate on your coil. Could the coil numbers be "HS12"? and "45038D"?

I checked the HS coils in the Lucas Equipment & Spare Parts Master Catalogue 1945-1960 #400e.

Coil 45038A was used in AC Ace and AC Aceca Coupe with Ace engines 1955-1960. No info on "45038D". I assume that "D" was a minor variant of the "A" coil.

HS12 Sports Coils are listed in the 1939 Lucas Batteries, Equipment, and Spares Catalogue #400B, but does not show a part number.

The Bobine site for Turners that you found also has similar coil information for Jaguar XK140. See "1.1 First version HS coil." "The text on the brass plate reads: MODEL HS12, TYPE L-0 12V ER 45038A."
http://www.bobine.nl/jaguar/13-electrical/lucas-sports-coil/

More info and photos on MG Exp:
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/t-series-and-prewar-forum.46/prewar-coil-plate.3653203/

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Thanks for the link Bruce. It restored my faith in my memory as it has the photo of the gold (grey-brown?) coil.

In case it helps your enquiries, I went for a dig in the shed and found a few old coils.

The black one (probably previously gold) from my race car does not have "LUCAS" embossed on the canister. On the brass plate, under MODEL it has 12V ER, and under TYPE it has 406996.

The rusty (with remnants of gold or grey-brown) coil has the "LUCAS" embossed like yours but does not appear to be stamped under MODEL or TYPE on the brass plate.

The red-ribbed-top coil has SH 12, 45088A and 4 64 stamped on the flat end. I guess 4 64 means April 1964?

I have tried to upload the photos but there seems to be a problem at the moment! I will try later.

Cheers from South Australia,
Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Bruce,

Your coil is certainly not original to your TD. It is prewar, used on high end cars Jaguar, Bentley etc.
The original TD coil was 45020A/B model Q12, this however was soon superseded by 45074H model LA12. If you want a period sports coil then you need model SA12. They are available but for big money. I have an LA12 on my TD, it does the job.


John





J Scragg

Sorry, I am giving up on attaching coil photos. They won't attach (and it is not file size... It says "Hmmm, can't find that site!). I have tried many times. I have even placed them alongside two other photos which DID attach to a post I put under "TC Axle breakage". They were taken with the same camera. Too much alien intervention near the moon landing anniversary?
Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Always have thought TF 1250s had the black Q12 coil, whereas the TF1500
only had the LA12.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

Rob -

You are my guiding light for TF originality, however I believe that Q12 coils and LA12 coils were both used on TF-1500s. MG and Lucas documents plus owner information indicate that LA12 coils replaced Q12 coils around late November 1954.

Here is a recap on my Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MdEweyhQKryva578r7KJlJ_9INwoF_GJ/view?usp=sharing

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

My 55 TF was built Dec. 17, 1954 and it has an LA12 coil. I can only assume it's original as it only had 2 owners before and it sat for well over 20+ years in a doctors garage with a couple old Jaguars. Wouldn't sell the Jags, bummer. PJ
PJ Jennings

PJ,

You can easily verify if the coil is original by checking the date stamped on the base of the coil.

John
J Scragg

As John points out you will find a month/year embossed on the bottom of the original coils. It should be 1-3 months before your car was produced.

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_details_dates.htm

BTW I could use a few more details on some of these date locations and formats if anyone wants to send me an example in a picture.
Christopher Couper

Lonnie,

I enjoyed reading your excellent, well written article on the Q12 and LA12 coils.


These parts of course do have the date, part no. etc. on the base of the Lucas coils. However, many coils have been replaced over the years on many cars!

It would be good to try and establish further when the change to the TF 1500 LA 12 actually came into play.


Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Unfortunately there is no way to know if a coil is original no matter what date is stamped on it. Even a relatively new car could have swapped coils more than once, let alone over several decades. And some people even specifically seek out parts with certain dates that are near their car's age. So nothing is certain anymore.
Steve Simmons

So nothing is certain anymore.

I defiantly agree with that! So many previous misconceptions have come to light in the past few years because some folks have diligently researched past records, quite impressive! PJ
PJ Jennings

Steve,

I don't fully agree with you. If the date stamp is within a few months before the build date, it is "probable" that it is original, (Nothing is absolute). On the other hand if the stamp, is some date after the build date, then you are sure that it is not original. So date checking is not, as you imply, totally useless.


John
J Scragg

I didn't say it's totally useless. I simply said it's impossible to prove that a coil is original. Possibly original, yes. But even today people are deliberately installing coils with "correct" date codes on their cars. So 30 years from now someone might mistakenly claim it's the original even though it was installed decades after the car was made.

In the end, it doesn't matter one bit. If the coil has a relatively close date to the car's manufacture, then that's as original as it needs to be.

In my TC, I run a coil made in the 30's. I like it better than what is supposed to be there and have no plans to enter a car show. But in all of my cars I always install generators with appropriate date codes, because I like seeing that when I open the bonnet. I did used to think the generator in my '65 was original because it had the correct date code and the car has been in the family since new. Then one day I came across a receipt for a replacement generator...
Steve Simmons

Steve is correct on that. My TD has had at least two previous owners. I have owned it for 46 years. I am still finding parts that IMHO would not be original.
9/49 on the Distributor. Could the factory still have a 1 year old distributor around the factory? Possible, but probably not.(Nov 1 1950 build date on my TD.

This Distributor. Not factory original, but could it have been added by the dealer? Per the article, this could date from the 1950's, so it may be period. (Have to wait to see what Steve thinks. I sent it to him for evaluation and testing)

My starter and generator are dated within a few months prior to the build date)

Bruce Cunha

My TD has date correct starter and generator that is not original to my car. But nobody knows that but me. :-)
Christopher Couper

Chris,
Everybody knows it’s now, LOL

Bill Chasser
TD-4834

W A Chasser

Bruce's coil releasing some 20th century electricity.

Bruce, I sent you an email the other day. Hopefully you got it.

Steve Simmons

Steve did a great test on the Coil. The result is that it should work well for a standard TD motor.

So now the question is should the brass plate be shiny? Should the lettering be topped with black? Or should it be black with brass lettering?

Bruce Cunha

Bruce I think a close inspection of the tag gives you your answer
It would appear that all the high spots would natural brass and the low spots black. However that being said I would leave the patina as is if it were going on my dad’s car. Some pieces left as is add to the charm.
W A Chasser

Here is a photo of my "hi energy" coil, working very well after many years.
I enjoyed the above referenced article on "sports coils".
Thanks for posting Bruce.

Tom
'54 TF

T Norby

This thread was discussed between 12/07/2019 and 21/07/2019

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