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MG TD TF 1500 - TD 2 Bow Side Curtain Queries

I’m presently making new side curtain frames for my 2 bow TD based on some original 2 bow frames in really badly rusted condition. These will be an exact replica, minus the rust of course.. A couple of questions.

Did the 2 bow frames originally have an I.D. plate on both the front & rear curtains? I know that one was fitted to the drivers front as I can see the holes on the original frame. (I believe it/they were on the top rail on the driver’s side. FTFU lists just 1 per car, however I also have a pair of original 3 bow rear screen frames with 2 holes where the I.D. plate was once secured on the driver's side. I wondered if this plate was to distinguish the 2 bow & 3 bow side curtains?)

Were the 3 rivets originally split or simply some sort of flattened rivet? Anglo Spares seems to show something of the kind.

Would it be possible to cut the material (that Moss supplies) over the Perspex window so that it could be folded back and secured under the chrome trim strips so as not to reveal a frayed edge? (Perhaps this method may pose a problem at the corners?)

Did anyone have any issues with fitting the Moss side curtain covers?

Be great to hear from owners of original 2 bow TD's in relation to the first 3 queries. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

I have just stripped back my 2-bow side screen frames.
They only have one with a plate riveted and it is a patent reference plate.

The windows and fabric were in a terrible state so this is the start of a full refurb. for them

Mel Pascoe

Mel was that on the driver's side front screen? Any chance of a a couple of pics of the screens? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter:

Very special solid rivets on the back side curtains
http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_nitty.htm
at the bottom of the page

Only one patent plate per car. Passenger side in the 2nd section from the top rear.

Abingdon Spares also has the plate
http://abingdonspares.com/product/side-curtain-patent-plate/





Christopher Couper

Chris your site describes the rivets as 'The head dia is 5mm, the round head height is 2.8mm, the dia is 3mm. The washer is 3/8" x 18swg or 1.2mm'. Your pic shows the front. Do you have a pic of the rear? Anyone know where these can be obtained in Oz?

I have the patent plate but will need the two fixings. Apparently the plate and the fixings are available separately from FTFU.

The following pics show the original front frame, patent plate and the location. The ply template was used to make the frame with the four pieces held in place using thin 1" finishing nails in pairs to trap the stiles and rails. The corners of the ply were drilled out to minimise the wood burning while welding. Note the circular milled section at the bottom of the door fixing. Apparently this doesn't exist on the AM frames. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

Pic 2 showing original patent plate detail. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Another great tidbit of information. I will add this to my curtains when I refinish them.
Bruce Cunha

This shows the difference in size between an original TD 3 bow frame and the TD 2 bow cardboard template for the rear screen. Bit difficult to see though against the dark shutter ply. This is for a RHD vehicle. Obviously it is fairly simple to convert the 3 bow to a 2 bow using a MIG, an angle grinder, an American screwdriver and a vise. Turning a 2 bow into a 3 bow is also doable but is a little more difficult. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

I have taken a picture of two frames to show the label position. Other front frame does not have holes for label
These look to be for the RHS of the car as judged from the scallop sections of the forward fixings.
This was a left hand drive car from the USA

I painted the base coat yesterday -- POR 15

Hope this helps

Mel Pascoe

Thanks Mel. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I posted this pic on another thread a couple of years ago. It's of interest as it shows a 2 bow TD screen overlaid on a TF screen. While they are both original screens note the location of the patent plates.. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Peter: On the details page if you select the rivet description there is a photo (camera icon). First one is the front and the next one is the rear. Basically they were hammered flat and then ground down almost flush.

Note the picture of my car is using split rivets and a washer. Not correct.
Christopher Couper

Here are my unrestored frames showing the patent plate on only one side. I'll leave it to you to determine which side that screen frame is for.
Jud

J. K. Chapin

Here's a close up of the patent plate.

Jud

J. K. Chapin

Here's a comparison of the TC, the TD two bow, the TD three bow and the TF screens. I've forgotten the source so I can't give proper credit. I hope you can enlarge it enough to make it useful. I have a 5kb image that I'll email to anyone interested.

Jud

J. K. Chapin

Thanks Jud. The last image is from Moss. I have the document that it came from somewhere in my archive. I've yet to locate it to check the dimensions against the frames that I have though I'm confident I have a two bow set. The location of the single patent plate on the two bow has been confirmed. CC has answered the rivet query with confirmation offline by Rob Grantham.

It certainly seems possible to fold back the material on the outside of the window to present a folded rather than a fraying edge. This would be hidden by tucking it under the chrome trim. I've found some other posts in the archive critical of Moss kits fraying at the edges with some owners wondering why the fabric generally wasn't folded under prior to stitching. This is standard practice according to those owners whose wives are skilled in sewing. Apart from that criticism others who have used the Moss kit seem fairly happy.

The bespoke frames are almost finished and they are indistinguishable from the originals, right down to the circular recess on the brackets. Once primed I'll post a few pics. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

See http://www.ttalk.info/Curtains/index.html Bud
Bud Krueger

Thanks Bud. I'd edited this document a few years ago removing a few dimensional typos and saved it somewhere, but yet to locate it. The following pic is from Rod Jones. It is the only other pic I've seen that shows the bows covered with fabric, as mine was originally. Rod can you contact me on pjbm at bigpond dot com? Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

This pic shows my bows covered in the canvas fabric in the condition they were in when I bought the car in 1969. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Pic 2

P Hehir

Pic 3. I've kept a container of this original material if anyone would like to examine it. Happy to post a piece to you. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

My bespoke side curtain frames are finished and primed but still await colour coat in enamel. However they do look stunning! As I'm about to test fit the hood frame and bows up against the side curtain frames on the car, I'd appreciate seeing some pics of the two bow set up from inside the car. This will give me an idea of the ideal relationship between these metal components.

As I'm yet to fit the upholstery, I plan to use pieces of ply over the tub woodwork to simulate the thickness of the trim panels. This will enable me to make whatever adjustments are necessary to ensure the best fit possible without perforating the finished panels. All internal pics of successful (or even unsuccessful) TD 2 bow installations welcomed. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I posted some tips over in the Fully Removable Hood Installation thread you brought back from the dead.
Christopher Couper

Thanks Chris. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Pic of modified 3 bow rear laid over the 2 bow curtain from Moss. Still a bit of tweaking to do on the frame at the top right corner so that it talks to the line of stitching beneath it. The colour of the frame was matched to the fabric at Bunnings under flouro lighting. When viewed in daylight it aint real flash. But it does seem fairly close to the original TD tan/khaki colour. Think I'll live with it.

The slit that you can see in the centre of the pic is placed there by the manufacturer. This is to get the owner started when attempting to remove the fabric that protects the window plastic during storage and transit. Obviously it's vital that the plastic not be cut when removing this excess fabric. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

It would seem to me the stitching should be slightly inboard of your holes for the chrome stips or perhaps spot on with the holes so you could cut the material just inboard of the stitching and have the edges covered by the chrome strips.

My side curtains were custom made so I cannot comment on the commercial ones.
Christopher Couper

The instructions that Moss put together show pics of the holes sitting directly over the run of stitching. I can see this being the desired situation and I believe I can achieve this. Chris can you post a close up of your corner detail please? This is the area that I'm still struggling to get my head around. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter: Is this what you are looking for? My side curtains are buried in the car but hopefully this is the angle that can help you.

Christopher Couper

Not really. What I need is a good close up of the corners of the fabric between the chrome strips viewed from outside the car. I understand that I can either hide the cut edge under the chrome strip and metal frame OR fold it back on itself and reveal a tiny amount of the folded back edge, bit like a hem.

But as yours are buried, we have a problem Houston.. You guys must have spring approaching so I can delay fitting them to the frames for a while. Unless there is someone else out there who has a side curtain install with a corner detail that they're not embarrassed about?

The following pics show what not to do when installing hood and side curtains. I took these at a Sydney concours some years ago. I have no idea who owns these cars. Cheers
Peter


P Hehir

Another

P Hehir

And one more. The frayed edges here are the issue. As Chris rightly suggests they should be hidden under the trim on the outside and behind the frame in the inside. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Bill do you mind if I post the pic that you put up a while ago? I really understand your disappointment with the job. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Lets try this picture then.

Keep in mind my curtains were custom made but supposedly as close to original as possible. But I did find a few places where the upholster did "improve" a bit on the original in quality.


Christopher Couper

Thanks Chris. The corner detail is still really hard to see. Has he stitched the fabric at the corners to prevent it from fraying? It seems he may also have used overlong chrome strips, maybe from a TF? The end result is pretty pleasing though. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The chrome strips are original from my car.

As you can see the chrome strips just about touch. There is nothing you can do to adjust that. You just have to balance the strips out so they are even. The holes in the frame set the location.

He did fold the material over and then stitched just inside where the chrome strips go. You can see the stitching at the corner in the picture. He was meticulous and in this case probably overdid what the factory would have done.

Christopher Couper

Thanks Chris. Sorted. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Test fitting the now painted frames over the Moss side curtains reveals the following. The driver's front is great as the stitching and the centre line of holes in the frames align perfectly. The driver's rear less so but it can be made to work. The chrome trim should match up on this side of the car. The passenger side however is a problem with the front a bit more accurate than the rear, which was way out. This meant that even modifying the rear passenger frame slightly - cutting and re-welding it - I'm still not able to have the chrome strips perfectly align. The front and rear frames themselves are each a perfect pair and are either original or an exact replica of the originals, it's the work of the upholsterer that is the issue. Shame really because the quality of the material is high. With just a bit more care and quality control the side curtain package could/should have been a terrific product. So.. Caveat emptor. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The fit of the widely used Amco kits many years ago was all over the place. Maybe 20+ years ago, someone reproduced a run of metal frames. They borrowed multiple sets of original frames, compared them, were found to be slightly different, and produced an average replacement frame. Even if a new set was exactly made from the frames original to a specific car, they may not be exactly correct after restoration. The car's body dimensions will be different as well- angle of the windscreen, length, angle of the door/door pillar, and pretty much everything will be slightly different which could cause a big issue with sidescreen fit. So IMHO, I think the only way to get a really perfect fit is to pay a whole lot and have the curtains custom made. Or have the kits supplied without the center stitching , and at least the top and front edges unstitched, so you could fit/mark and have locally sewn and finished. George
George Butz III

Yeah I'd pretty much go along with that George. The original frames must have been made in a jig though. When I decided to make mine from scratch I used an original set of frames as the template. With a couple of sheets of 18 mm ply and a bunch of brads I trapped the original frames to make the jigs and so was able to produce 3 pairs of front frames and each were EXACTLY identical to the originals. The only difficult bit was sourcing the 1/2" x 1/2" angle, I had to resort to ripping down some 3/4" x 1/2". I've kept one pair of frames, gave one pair to the guy who lent me the seriously rusted originals and who also paid for the materials and I still have the other pair that I'll probably flog on Ebay.

I really do like your suggestion that the problem would disappear if the window stitching were omitted though and added in the appropriate location later. It wouldn't even have to match the rest of the stitching as it would never be seen. It certainly would have solved my problem. A fine bit of lateral thinking George! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This thread was discussed between 04/03/2018 and 29/03/2018

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