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MG TD TF 1500 - TD4834 Engine Build Begins

I finally received my block and Laystall back from the machine shop today with the exhaust valve reliefs cut into the top of the block deck. Hauled them back up the hill to Lawrie's where we put the rear main upgrade into place. We'll let it set up over night and then take the crank back out, clean everything up and begin what will hopefully be a non-eventful final assembly. If all goes well the engine should be headed back to Sacramento Thursday afternoon or Friday AM and I can stuff it in the chassis over the weekend. I think the color is beginning to return on my face having held my breath for so long...

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Today started out rough. After letting the Moss conversion seal mount set up overnight we installed the lip seal on the crank and set it into place with the flywheel. It was a no go as the seal interfered with both. We pulled it all back apart and removed a gasket/ shim we made for it yesterday. Resealed everything and managed to get the crank, rods, pistons , cam and flywheel installed. With that being said we hope the hard times are behind us and the rest of the build progresses smoothly. Lawrie said that one in a hundred blocks end up having this issue. Leave it to me to have that one. Lol. Lawrie somehow was not amused with my levity.

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Best of luck!
Geoffrey M Baker

I just returned home from day three at Lawrie's. This engine build is going to fight us until the end. Spent several hours today getting the cam timing dialed in. Lubed the the threads on the rods and got them torqued down. Assembled the roller rockers on the shafts and pedestals. Installed the ARP head studs, oil pan, timing cover and oil pump when Lawrie realized I had forgotten an oil slinger on the crankshaft. I frantically pulled the pan and cover back off hoping to save the gaskets before the sealer set up. Unfortunately, the pan gaskets got torn in the process. Thankfully he had a set in his stock to replace them. Spent another 1 1/2 hrs cleaning everything up again and decided enough for the day. Will install the pan and timing cover tomorrow and begin setting the Laystall on and measuring push rod lengths. This engine is just wearing me down. It has fought me every step of the way since January. I'm so ready for this project to be done.
W. A. Chasser Jr

To the level you're building, I suspect it will be worth it later. Hang in there.

Alex
Alex Waugh

Bill

Dont want to rain on your parade, however double check the con rods are not in back to front, the flea that assembled my motor did exactly that, thank goodness other issues resulted in the engine being dismantled before the blue touch paper got lit.

Before you install the lump, fill it with oil and stand it on the fly wheel over nite to prove the Moss seal is functional, do a few revs with the crank handle during the process. Not as good a test as running the motor uninstalled in the car, however that is a pain to achieve.

Other issue that catches a lot of people out is having the motor turned upside down when they install the timing chain.

Graeme
G Evans

Alex, thank you. It was a very long day yesterday filled with frustration over stupid mistakes. It should be an exhilarating ride when completed. A few more added days at this point isn't going to make a difference to me, but I'm still under the gun when it comes to getting this done in time for dad.

Graeme. Yes Lawrie pointed out early on about the oil holes pointing to the thrust side of the cylinder wall as well as making sure the domes on the pistons were also oriented correctly to match the combustion chambers.

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Day four and yet more set backs. After reinstalling the pan and timing cover this AM Lawrie and I proceeded to mock up the Laystall to measure for push rod lengths. After cutting and pressing in the cups we were left with six completed and two cups galled and refusing to seat. So now I'm back to reordering push rods on Monday if I find who supplied them. Having gone as far as we could go and not wanting to continue commuting to Lawrie's ( a 90 mi round trip) we loaded the engine in my truck with the boxes of unassembled incidentals and brought the engine home. As I wait for pushrods I can clean the outside of the engine mask it off and paint it, then finish installing all the exterior incidentals and stuff it in the car in a few days. That way I can get the panels fitted while I wait for what I hope will be the last Moss order and an order from TopsOnline.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill, I did a very similar build a few years ago for a gent here in Chicago. Cross flow aluminum head, roller cam, , etc. I would suggest you assemble everything snugly. Don't torque the head until you have verified that the push rods do not foul at the tome of their bores through the head. Ideally, at 50% of cam lift, a push rod and valve stem should be horizontal. I have a great deal of experience with high performance engines, and MG's in particular. I have installed the Moss rear seal 3 times - 100% successful, as well as the Chevy 2 piece crank seal. I admire what you are doing for your father,. If I can be of any assistance at all, do not hesitate to contact me.

Gregory
(708) 715-5517
GMS Serduke

Thanks Gregory for your offer of assistance. I'm thinking at this point I will simply need to order pushrods Monday cut to my length requirements and fully assembled by the supplier before shipment. I'm certain that the cups had to be incorrectly sized which caused them not to properly seat. I also need to pick up some modeling clay and lay some on my pistons and reliefs to do a final clearance check on the exhaust valves when open. I can do three holes and then transfer a pair to do the last hole for the missing P/Rs. Once done I can be confident and replace the used head gasket with my new one and finish torqueing the Laystall into place. Then finish with all the external fitments and set it into the chassis while I await the P/Rs arrival from the supplier.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Remember to use the hardened washers under the head nuts, Bill.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Hi Tom Yes I have them ready to install but I lost the directions regarding the stud installation. Should I be putting the studs in the block with Loctite? I had put a smear of silicone on them because they go into open holes to the water jacket to prevent seepage but noticed that when I backed the nuts off from the mock up that I had movement of the studs? I'm thinking now I should clean the studs and holes and use the Loctite stud mount. Your thoughts?

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill when I reinstalled the head I was advised to relieve the area at the base of each stud in the block to eliminate the raised area caused by the head wanting to part company with the block. I used a drill bit slightly larger than the diameter of the stud to remove this raised area before installing the new studs & nuts. It doesn't require the removal of much meat, just a few thou. Bit like dealing with tree roots lifting a concrete pavement. I replaced the studs & nuts because over time the threads on both stretch &, as I'm sure you know, it is essential not to mix old studs & new nuts, or visa versa, so that the correct head tension can be achieved. As one of the nuts went missing I had no option but to replace the lot. I installed the studs using the double nut principle torqued down to 50 ft/lbs. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Bill - my ARP design studs have a hex in the top end to enable you to install them without any problem. I don't recommend any silicone or other sealant, and there is no need to use Loctite. I certainly don't recommend you torque them to 50 foot-pounds; my guess is that you would strip the hex.

First clean out the block holes thoroughly, using solvent and a DULL tap (a sharp one will remove metal unnecessarily). Then lightly lubricate my studs with a dab of your engine oil and torque them down to 10 foot-pounds using the internal hex on the end of the stud. Then install the remainder of the parts, and torque to 20, 40, and then 60 foot-pounds.

Especially with an aluminum head, I would recommend occasional re-torquing. I would run the engine, blipping the throttle and letting it get up to operating temperature. Then let it cool down completely, re-torque it, and do the same after 50, 100 and 500 miles. You may be surprised how much movement there is!

I chamfer every open hole on the block before I send it off to be cleaned by the machine shop.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Hi Peter. After the block was decked I ran a tap through the holes and chamfered them for the reason you'd you mentions. I purchased new ARP head studs from Tom to replace the 64 year old original studs. ARP has very specific instructions as to the proper installation of their products. I all the movement of parts around my shop, The machine shops, Lawrie's garage etc I misplaced their directions. Because they screw into the water jackets I had coated them with silicone sealer vs a thread locking agent. In hindsight this may not have been the best choice for the application.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill - here's a handy tip for the re-torquing: find an old 19/32" socket to fit your torque wrench, and cut it down so it fits onto the head nuts with the rocker shaft in place. You will have to remove the clips on the end of the rocker shaft to torque the end nuts, but that's no big deal.

It saves you from constantly having to remove the rocker gear to re-torque the head. You should check the valve adjustment afterwards, but it would probably need adjustment at that point anyway.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tom Thanks again for your posts. I had to reread the first one and just so happen to have a 19/32 socket. I've had it for years and never had a use for it.

Bought a small amount of modelers clay today to check piston to valve clearances. Also got in touch with Manton Push Rods in Lake Elsinore CA to have a new set of chrome molly pushrods fully assembled sent to me. After ruining my "cut to fit" set that came with my roller cam I decided to let the manufacturer do them up for me this time around.

I found that I have to back track further as I found parts that are apparently the filter bypass check ball, spring and (?). I don't know if these were replaced previously or these need to go back in, so it's off with the oil pump. As soon as I get the pump back on I am going to flood the outside with Brakekleen and prime it for paint
W. A. Chasser Jr

My fully assembled pushrods arrived last night From Manton Pushrods. So today I will double check my clearances and set the laystall in place one final time and get the valve train finished. Waiting for a Moss order to arrive today so that I can fit the oil filter bypass assembly in place and re install the pump. Also waiting for a gear and pins for my Mallory distributor. I was going to re build my original but I found it to be in less than good order. the main casting's ears that retain the cap snap clips are broke and I'm missing a clip and pin, The mechanical advance is frozen also and I have it soaking in penetrating oil in hopes to free it up. Hopefully and God willing the engine will be assembled this weekend...

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Finally, forward progress today. After a final mock up with clay to check valve clearances, it was time to install the Laystall for what I hope is the last time. Moly lubed the push rods and installed the rocker assembly and adjusted the valves. Set the valve and push rod covers into place and called it a day. My Moss order arrived this evening so tomorrow we will remove the oil pump assembly and install a new filter bypass. Once the pump is back in place I can douche the engine with BrakeKleen, prime and paint. I have a few items yet to sand blast and paint as well. As that is drying I will install the header with bolts and re jet the carbs with new MK II needles and jets, make the initial settings and synchronize the linkages. Hopefully and if things go smoothly Sunday the XPAG will return to its chassis after a +45 year hiatus
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill, do you have any pictures you can post. I'm sure that I'm not the only one following your progress with keen interest. Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Jud I do, but I just can't get them to load on this site and fed up with trying as I'm just not that savvy in making it happen. there are pics on Facebook and go to MGTD-Enthusiasts. My posts begin on December 24 2014 if anyone wishes to peruse the updates on both the cassis or engine builds. Also join the group if you wish
W. A. Chasser Jr

Hope you dont mind Bill, looking forward to seeing it on the road.

mog

Funky side.

mog

Thanks Bill and MOG. I'm a member of the Enthusiasts site and will peruse it more often. Due to my very slow internet connection I sometimes get frustrated with it. Don't know if upgrading to a paid gold membership would help but I may try it. Jud
J K Chapin

I managed to get a little farther today. Oil filter bypass in place and reinstalled the pump. Washed the engine down, masked, primed and painted. I opened a new can of paint and found the nozzle was defective/ the stem was broke off in the plunger. A whole can of paint wasted. Aargh! Still have loose parts to paint so I will have to order another can. I have to reorder all the dowdy seals for the oil lines, and spigots, I managed to misplace them somewhere in all the moving around. AARGH!!!! Front motor plate, hi torque starter, oil Filter assembly and cooler lines, front engine saddle are now in place. The header is mocked up on the Laystall so I can work on changing the jetting tomorrow and get the linkages in sync. Also will fabricate new full length float bowl breather lines. Its looking more and more together and nearing a trip to its new home.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Engine was hauled to the shop this afternoon and installed in the chassis. Went together reasonably easy though I had to pull the steering column back out, remove the front saddle and engine stabilizer bracket in order to clear the R&P protection plate. Once the input shaft mated to the clutch disc it slid together nicely. Re set the engine mount and freed the engine hoist. I then worked on hooking the fuel lines, starter wires and re jetting the H-4s It's beginning to look more like a car. My to do list is shrinking as it gets more refined. I have yet another Moss order to put in to finish the engine install but its getting very close to a start up Maybe by the weekend ...

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

MOG, thank you for uploading my pics from the TD Enthusiasts site on FB

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Hi Bill,just looked at the photos.Is there a reason that numbers 5 and 6 cam follower location plate is at the back?
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Hi Ray, the short answer is yes. I am using an aluminum push rod cover that has a clearance notch for the distributor, this notch interferes with the number 3 cylinder's roller lifter tie bar. The block required a small amount of casting removal for the tie bar to clear. I chose only to do that cylinder and not the others at there was no issues with 1,2&4. Also to reverse the other three would have required additional metal to be removed at the stud holes

Regards

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill,

As per my earlier post, the pictures posted on this thread of your engine seem to indicate that there is no clearance at full valve lift for the push rod through its hole in the head. I had this exact problem in a high performance engine build for a TF. The push rods used with the roller cam are substantially greater in OD and require opening up of the thru-hole in the head. That may or may not be the case with your engine, but I would surely double check it. Fouling of moving engine components is not a good thing.

Gregory
GMS Serduke

Gregory, yes you are correct and I did do a further investigation. The stock pushrods are .250 where as the Manton push rods I had made up are .315 There was interference and as a remedy I opened up the Laystall's holes .060 to provide the necessary clearance. Thank you for bringing it to my attention as I had initially overlooked the issue as described. Sage advise that saved me a bunch of grief down the not too distant road...

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Gregory, I have had no reports of any push rod interference in the cylinder head push rod tube area, using OEM cylinder heads. This includes my personal vehicle. Although OEM tolerances may vary from car to car. More than 200 camshafts kits sold to date.
Len Fanelli
914 420 8699
Len Fanelli

I'm enjoying watching this come together Bill... my engine is still in the shop so I'm living vicariously...
Should be done in the next ten days or so then I'll be doing the same thing you are (well, without the budget for a Laystall head and roller cams :) )
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey, its been a long and frustrating learning curve to be sure. I'm just hoping the engine lives beyond a few brief seconds. I'm always anxious of initial start ups. Did I forget something? Did I torque that?, Did I install this correctly?

Today I finished doing the initial set up on the carbs, got the oil line to the head sealed and the gauge hooked up, the dynamo is in place, the throttle peddle linkage installed as is the clutch linkage. Came back home and painted the remainder of the engine pieces MG Red ie the dynamo adjustment bar, water pump, pulley, spacer, thermostat housing, and carb return spring bracket.

Tomorrow morning will be doing the fan blades in safety yellow, though I am contemplating a MGB plastic fan as Ive been told they pull more air. I haven't decided yet but best do it quickly as I will be ready for a radiator in a few days.

Waiting for a set of red Taylor 8mm TCW non-suppression ignition wire to show up at my local speed shop tomorrow as well. A small Moss order due Late Thursday should have the engine ready for fire up by Sunday.
W. A. Chasser Jr

I painted mine yellow as well. (Psst, don't tell anybody :) )
Geoffrey M Baker

W. A.,

Let us know how the 8mm ignition wires fit in the screw down connectors on the distributer and coil. The WSM says 7mm which I purchased and are not a tight fit in the connectors. Just a for-what-its worth because all pre-made ignition sets I found were 7mm. TIA

Jim Haskins 1953 YF
J. M. Haskins

Jim, My wires are going on a Mallory distributor and Lucas Sport coil. Neither of which take screw in caps. I Imagine that one might have to pull back the outer sheathing for them to go into the screw caps. I can let you know as I will have waste and I can try it on a new cap set I bought for my stock dizzy. The wires haven't arrived yet

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Bill,

Thanks for the response. I will continue to watch the thread. Im mostly interested in a moisture proof seal to prevent long-term corrosion in the disy cap. Mine is the old original style and still working well. Do not want to have to do a replacement.

Jim Haskins
J. M. Haskins

Jim, I have always slathered the ends of the plug wire and screw cap with silicone dielectric grease. This pretty much keeps water out and prevents corrosion. George
George Butz

Jim Haskins. The Taylor 8mm Pro Wire slides through the Lucas screw caps without modification

Cheers

Bill Chasser jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

This thread was discussed between 15/04/2015 and 01/05/2015

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