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MG TD TF 1500 - TF Wood - gave up, starting over

I bought another set of wood for my TF. I whittled the previous set into toothpicks. This time I'm gonna ask for confirmation before I act.

Background - When I bought the car, it was 20-footer that only needed new paint. I disassembled for paint and discovered that pillars were rotted, broken, and not attached. The bottom main rail was for a TD. I had nothing to use as a guide.

I tweaked and assembled my first set of wood to produce a tub that looked OK and doors seemed to fit. However, a quarter panel creased when clamped it to the wood. Oher fitment problems arose. I kept removing wood to fix the problems until everything was wonky. Two years wasted.

My new latch pillars (and also the previous new latch pillars) do not match the angle of the door opening of the quarter panel. I cut and shimmed the tenons on my first new latch pillar to bring it parallel to the quarter panel. I can do that again. Don't want to cut and shim the mortis in the rail because shims would be cross-grain.

>> So, what's the first step in my Re-Do?
I assume it is to make the latch pillars parallel to the openings in the quarter panels, and position them to fit the doors? Or am I already missing a step?

>> What's the next step?

Side note:
I apologize to club members, especially George Butz, who helped me with my first attempt. The car was ready for final assembly before paint, until I over-tweaked.

Thank for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211

Top: New bottom rail, new latch pillar, front quarter panel
Bottom: Door and wood





LM Cook

Here's the new bottom rail and latch pillar clamped over my first rail and adjusted pillar.

Lonnie
TF7211

LM Cook

I have used wood from many vendors. I have had the best luck, by far with wood from Craig Seabrook, The Whitworth Shop in Novelty Ohio. When I rebuilt the TD I replaced all but three pieces in one door. The alignment is perfect, and there are no shims anywhere in the tub. Al the wood fit very will with minimal shaping with a rasp.
Be well,
David
D. Sander

I contacted Craig three years ago. He told me that he wasn’t making TF wood anymore.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie: Those are huge differences between sets. No wonder you could not get them to work assuming the new ones are more correct.

Any chance you might have gotten some TD wood originally instead of TF?
Christopher Couper

Random (very random) thoughts: For those that don't know the whole story, this tub had been rebuilt in the late 60s or so, using lumber yard made pieces. Thoughts as of now: That new piece of wood is way off. The pillar front edge is parallel to the front edge of the quarter, which means it is the door opening side is way off. Remember that the front firewall to quarter angle was off too, and you had to make the angled shims to fit the front end? Are we sure the door and quarter are TF and not from a TD or something? I wonder what a TD pillar would look like in there?? Any chance you have some differently angled TD parts (quarter/door) in there from the 60s rebuild? What about making a fully custom piece of wood? Or cut it down the middle and make a v-shaped filler piece. At this point have to think outside the box. May be simplest to order another front pillar from another supplier and compare. George
George Butz III

Lonnie,

When I rebuilt my yellow TC (oh, so many years ago now) I bought my wood from https://www.shop.classicwoodproductsllc.com/MG-TF_c47.htm (this is their TF link). I built the entire wood portion of the body, set it on the frame, then adjusted the metal to fit. Of course, I was lucky in away since the only original metal pieces left were the doors and the scuttle so most of the body was shaped to the wood, not the other way around.

Gene
Saucier, MS
Gene Gillam

My suggestion is just step back for a minute. Make a list of the most urgent non fitting areas and deal with the first of the worst. At the last T Type Tech day here we had a guy who rebuilt a TD using the metal panels to create thin ply templates to recreate the timbers as almost all of his were completely rotted. The car looks terrific. He is a chippy and does have a bandsaw but even using a jigsaw with a 6" blade to rough up the shape and by then using a spokeshave to finish it off, I was able to shape door stiles and rails, sills and a B pillar. Although not as strong as half lap joints, glued butt joins with rebated metal plates cut from cabinetry angles made the junctions with the repaired sections really solid. In short custom make the wood to fit the panels, not the other way around. In your situation and for the sake of your sanity, this has to be the most economic approach in terms of both time and money. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Lonnie. Sorry to hear that you have to start from square one again. If you remember I’ve been in your shoes. I went through two sets of timbers when I rebuilt TD/c-8151. It might help you to review my threads on the tub rebuild on here and the MGExp. The TF is constructed a little differently than the TD but the basic steps are likely the same. Contact me offline and I’ll try to guide you through it. To much info to impart here.

Also, I would contact Craig again. Surely he must still have the patterns. Abingdon Spares would be my second US choice. I would also suggest contacting a UK supplier. (Hudson) They have a 30min video on YouTube building a TD tub from scratch. Though their construction techniques are not true to the factory originals it’ll give you a visual as a guide. I believe there was a timber supplier somewhere in the Carolinas although I don’t know their name or if they are still in business and have no idea about their quality.

IMHO only use Moss as a last resort. I have found their timber quality to be very poor, the tolerances and joinery is wide, the angles of the lap joints at the wrong angles, and the milling is inconsistent. I found 17 milling errors in one A pillar alone. Their plywood is cdx grade garbage with plugs and voids.

W A Chasser

Thanks guys.

So, I'll go to work trimming and shimming the tenons on the latch pillars to get the tenons to match the angle of the door openings in the quarter panel. I have a good woodshop and knowledge. Not gonna buy more wood from another supplier. I'll modify the wood that I have to fit.

The two sets of wood came from Abingdon Spares. Has anyone else on the BBS had a fitment problem with TF wood from Ab Spares? Or is the problem with my car?

I called Martin to see if he had sent some TD pieces when I tried to fit the latch pillars in the first set of wood that I bought. He said that all of the TF wood in stock was the same as mine. He's right.
This second set of wood is exactly like the first set.

The third photo in my original post shows a new latch pillar on top. The pillar that I bought three years ago and tweaked to match the door opening is on the bottom. It originally had the same angle as the new pillar. Both pillars are seated in their bottom rails and the bottom rails are clamped together. As you can see, the top of the tweaked pillar is about an inch behind its original position.

I've studied just about every post, book, video, and website. My questions are much more basic.

Just so everyone knows, George Butz drove 60 miles to my house more than once to work on my restoration and has supported me with phone calls and endless emails. He knows the car's previous owner. I don't believe that the doors are from a TD based on conversations with previous owners. But I didn't ask that specific question.

More questions to come after I complete this first task.

Thanks for your help and support,

Lonnie
TF7211

It looked so pretty before I started ...


LM Cook

I'm going to throw a curve ball and expect traditionalist to cringe BUT what about getting tub wood construction using plastic and 3d printing?
JK Mazgaj

3 D, laser cut, CNC milled in whatever medium that offers longevity has to be a good thing Jan. Anything that isn't seen and that prolongs the life of the cars and makes for ease of installation, as long as it's accurate, is progress in my book. I've added the Moss timber to the list of items that TD/TF owners have complained about. This is item # 87! Bill's observation that just one of Moss's timber pieces had 17 errors, paints a woeful picture about quality control. This exists right across the board. Yet there are Moss apologists on this BBS who feel that we all should be REALLY grateful that we get any spares at all, even if they are next to useless. But if I buy an orange and I get a lemon, should I actually be jumping for joy? The other thing that concerned me was when I heard recently that it isn't just M.G. owners who suffer at the hands of Moss. It's the crap that they sell to the other marques as well. Caveat emptor... Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter, I wouldn't apply it to the timber supplied but I wonder how may of the other items that are as a result of poor quality control originate from China where it appears from personal experience it's down to price.
JK Mazgaj

I'm in the same boat as Lonnie. My tub came together fairly well until I reached the RH door. I have tried every trick I can think of to make the door come together and then some. I'm on hold now trying to figure out what / how to make what I have achieved so far come together. If anyone knows of someone with practical experiance here in Oregon or the Pacific Northwest that can assist i'd appreciate the contact information or the forwarding of my info to them. If I had any hair i'd be pulling it out.




K. G. Meyer

I love wood/timber/lumber or whatever you wish to call it, and today, as a long retired, carpenter/joiner/cabinetmaker,I am becoming fascinated by the sorry stories about, mismatching/incorrectly shaped/ timber framing items for T-Type MG's, especially TF models.

I am seriously tempted to set up a bespoke wood framing manufacturing business even at my age. I could then teach a more junior enthusiast the beauty of using wood as the medium in T-Type restoration.

It is obvious, that the reproduction items available currently, are not pattern accurate and are being "mass" produced by a copying machine from incorrectly shaped patterns, to start with. This is the problem.

The woodworking equipment available today is superb, and like anything, the end result is just a copy of the pattern. If the pattern was wrong to start with, how else to explain the poor quality items being sold? I am thinking, just maybe I could do this, and do I want to?

Maurie Prior - Joiner/cabinetmaker/furniture maker, a late starting MGT-Type enthusiast
R M Prior

Jan too much of the junk that is sourced from the sub continent isn't subject to any form of quality control - and therein lies the problem. The irony is that it takes just as much time, money, material and effort to produce a dud product as it does to make a good one. This is what does my head in. To knowingly continue to sell products that aren't fit for purpose is a crime in my book. Caveat emptor. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Do ave access to another TF for comparison? I would measure another door. I hate to say it, but you may be better off to replace the door.
Be well,
David
D. Sander

KGM. Shim the rear of the tub to tilt the back section forward. I’m presuming the doors are original to that tub?
W A Chasser

I agree with Bill about the shimming. This will lift the rear and close the gap at the top of the door. I have 1/2" plastic packers at the rear. Once you've done this I also recommend that you test fit the aluminium sill plates before you paint just to ensure clearance with the bottom of the door. Looking really nice though. :-) Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Definitely pack the rear fitting and make sure the middle on is fully tightened down. It’s even worth trying some packing at the front as well. It’s amazing how flexible the system becomes when you work out the tricks!
Chris
C I Twidle

Here's an update:

I laid my right-side quarter panels on top of the door. Raised the front of the front QP and the back of the rear QP to match the curve of the tub. The door fit was very good, which confirms that the problem is with the wood.

I copied the angle of the door opening in my front quarter panel. I made sure that the horizontal leg of the sliding bevel gauge was not affected by the bottom-front of the QP that angles up. See setup in photo, next post.

Then I transferred the angle to the mortise in the new bottom main rail. The mortise is three degrees too vertical. See photo in my original post. This is the same error that was in the rail in the first wood set that I bought three years ago.

I'm checking the left side today.

More questions to come.

Lonnie TF7211

Photo:
Door fit inside quarter panels


LM Cook

Top: Copying angle of door opening.
Bottom: Angle transferred to latch pillar mortise in bottom rail. Three degree error = one inch error at top of pillar.

Lonnie
TF7211




LM Cook

When the original car was assembled I assume that the tub was made and then the fabricator would make the panels to fit.If that's the case then each car could and probably was slightly different as the tub again I assume would have been made by various individuals. The reason for this point is that I wonder whether the tub parts/plans used by the current supplier being able to fit the car the templates came from may well not fit every car correctly. This obviously doesn't solve your issue but could I suggest you visit a cabinet maker and see if they have advice to solve your problem. Personally I would glue in a new piece of wood into the existing cut and redo it myself at the correct angle. I would probably consider making the existing trench bigger to ensure the piece of new wood has plenty of original timber to adhere to.
JK Mazgaj

Hi Lonnie

That sounds rough, my sympathies.

If this was building a homebuilt (experimental in USA) wooden aircraft it would be 'set your datum' and stick to it and also the plans. This would be building off a flat work table that has been built and set up to be flat, level and square with a datum line bisecting it. Is the metal chassis the datum, if so it is twisted, repairs OK and what are the tolerances for it?

How do Morgan build their wooden frames and then panel them?

I would think of doors (as long as not twisted) and a front bulkhead and true chassis, all set up correctly as what to build off and make the frame parts to fit (and checking the old panels to see how much these will need work once the wooden frame is finished), not relying on premade wooden components to give the dimensions and fit, but expecting to make them fit to what you have that has been set up properly.

Are there good frame dimensions or plans available? As well as an old tub for refence purposes? And pictures of other wooden frames?

Just some thoughts from a non-T series owner. Sounds like you may have been chasing your datum around, rather than setting and having a fixed point to work from.

Thanks
Mike

M Wood

I completed the initial measurements of the wood for my TF.

I checked the left side door, latch pillar, and quarter panels like I did the right side a few days ago. Pretty much same results.

The left door fits the opening in the quarter panels well, as does the right side.

Lonnie
TF7211

LM Cook

The new latch pillar inserted into the mortise in the new bottom main rail is more vertical than the opening for the door in the front quarter panel, as it was with the first set of wood that I bought. Similar to the right side.

I copied the angle of the left door opening with a sliding bevel gauge as I did for the right door. The mortise in the bottom rail for the left latch pillar is inclined 2-1/2 degrees too vertical vs 3 degrees too vertical on the right side. But the mortise in the left bottom main rail is wider than the tenon on the latch pillar, so the slop can affect the angle by at least a half degree.

My current plan (subject to change): I'll adjust and tweak the hinge pillar first to fit the quarter panel. Then I'll cut the mortises for the latch pillars at the correct angle using a jig and router. This will increase the width of each mortise. I can move the latch pillar fore and aft as needed and lock in place with shims. Check and recheck the wood with the panels and doors as I go.

Thanks to everyone for your advice.

Lonnie
TF7211





LM Cook

I would not cut anything.

Mount your wood rails to the frame. Clamps should be OK. Then, using SHIMS and clamping force, make the pillars go where they used to go.

Please try this first. Wood bends quite easily, and you only need to bend the rail a bit to compensate.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

Jim, thanks for your suggestion.

I don't believe that I can bend the latch pillar one inch to the rear. Warping the bottom main rail is just as difficult. Based on my failed experience with my first set of wood over the last two years, I feel that I must fit the wood match the body panels with no stress.

I'll probably eat my words and buy a third set of wood.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie: Do you have another TF in your area you can take detail measurements from? That will help you get close to what is real. While there is some slop in how the parts fit together, I would be cautious on shaving and cutting too much.
Christopher Couper

Lonnie if you use the panels as your template to adjust the wood you'll solve your problem. The shot you posted of the nice panel fit on the floor proves this. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

To quote Jim B "Wood bends quite easily, and you only need to bend the rail a bit to compensate." It's surprising what you can do with some clamps and a steaming kettle of water. I've bent quite thick oak- including for example the piece where the hood is attached to the window frame.
JK Mazgaj

Have you watched this- TD body tub assemly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEqpqZj8FPw&t=8s
JK Mazgaj

I'm still asking questions before I modify by cutting or bending. I am fitting the wood to the body panels and doors. There are some beautiful TFs near me that I can measure - just gotta decide what to measure. None of them have bare wood. I've watched the Hutson video about a hundred times. I learn a little each time. I also watched the excellent TF restoration video that Rod Brayshaw posted on this BBS yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7t9VoaynGw&t

A TF owner sent this photo to me of a complete new tub that he purchased from Hutson. It really looks good!

Lonnie
TF7211


LM Cook

Ok, I have nothing useful to add. I am nowhere near the body stage on my TD and you guys are terrifying me.

Jim Smith
Nashville, Tennessee
JV Smith

Jim don't be fazed.I've always looked at things by realizing that whilst I may not be able to solve a particular problem there inevitably is someone out there who knows what to do. Thats' where the forum is such a wealth of experience and knowledge. I would add to this comment it's only health that can be a real worry.
JK Mazgaj

JK,
Yes, I agree. These forums are a lifesaver. I was only partially kidding. I feel pretty comfortable with the mechanical parts. I know I can get the help I need. I have to admit, the wood repair is daunting. I am sorry that Lonnie is having so much trouble, but this thread is very informative.

Jim
JV Smith

This thread was discussed between 17/06/2020 and 01/07/2020

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