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MG TD TF 1500 - TF: Gap at firewall is driving me crazy

I need your advice on the gap between the back of my TF firewall and the front of the body frame, especially on the right side. The answer may be self-evident, but I need your blessings.

>> Should I position the body frame so that the front of the body frame, the two wood side rails, the nailing lip of the front quarter panel, and the firewall are tightly together?

I have a 3/16" gap between the right front quarter panel and the firewall after front rails were replaced with new. Is this 3/16" gap correct?

The left side gap is a little smaller.

The body frame is locked in position by a rivet through a tab on the firewall and into the body frame, so the body frame can't be moved forward to eleminate the gap. (rivet temporarily replace with a screw)

My plan is to remove the rivet (screw) and move the frame rail forward to squeeze the body frame, side rails, nailing lip of the quarter panel, and firewall tightly togehter to eliminate the gap. Then drill a new hole in the tab on the firewall for the rivet. The bottom main rail and the pillars will move forward with the body frame.

Leave space for the sealant between firewall and front rails?

Another benefit is that it will move the quarter panel forward to improve the fit of the cowl-to-bonnet rubber at cowl and side panel on the right side.

I've been fighting this gap since I first took the car apart a couple of years ago. Untold hours pondering, assembling, disassembling, more pondering.

Thanks,

Lonnie
TF7211

Photos:

> 3/16" spacers in the gap.
> Inside gaps equal 3/16" too





LM Cook

Man doing this over the internet sucks. Hope someone local adhering to social distancing can visit you and assess everything. There are so many moving parts here and you are doing the right thing to get everything assembled and lined up while still doing the rough body work.

One question: You replaced the wood between the firewall and body? I assume that there are no holes in it yet? Are you sure the firewall is low enough? From the picture it looks a bit high but cannot tell with all the putty knives etc.

The trick is to make sure the hood (with the rubber) and most importantly the hood panel line up with the scuttle with the rubber in place. If you have some old pieces of the scuttle rubber you could use those as shims to check the position.

EDIT: Looking at the other post about the tab I see you are kind of locked with the vertical height. That leads me to wonder if the wood dimensions are correct. Also don't forget there is filler between the wood and firewall that is about 1/8" thick if that helps.
Christopher Couper

Chris, I spent some time with Lonnie a couple months ago working on fit issues. At that time I think you could stick your finger through the gap, so it is much better. Really weird deal with this and the door fit- no trace of accident damage anywhere, the wood had been replaced in the 60s as was done at the time so everything had been altered. Great time to drive up there with Disney closed and no I4 traffic, but COVID-19 climbing in Orange county..George
George Butz III

Chris and George -

Yes, I agree trying to diagnose these types of problems by text and photos is difficult.

The problems on the right side have existed even before I disassembled the car and replace wood.

George - Would you consider a FaceTime or Zoom session with me sometime to see and discuss my progress, or lack of?

I removed the rivet (screw), loosened the bolts that attach the body frame to the chassis, and clamped the front of the body frame to the firewall with side rails and quarter panel lip sandwiched between. That moved the body frame, wood, and panels forward. No gap between the outer and inner rails. The gap between the firewall and the side panel seems to be manageable. Photo attached.

When assembled, is sealant applied to both sides of the outer front rails, or just to the side that contacts the firewall? After the bolts around the firewall are tightened, how thick is the sealant? I assume that it is only a 1/16" or less.

Chris - The Ash front side rails are new and not drilled or nailed.

The temporary upper front rails are made from cedar so that I can tweak the fit. Those are drilled and attached to the firewall in two places. The upper front rail (outer) is only a 1/16" above the firewall. I'll cut a new cedar upper front rail (outer) to fit closer to the corner of the bonnet so that the B&G rubber fits better. You can see where the rubber is not supported by the rail. The gap between the rounded portion of the rubber and the bonnet at that corner is about an 1/8" too large. When all is right, I'll cut the final rail from Ash.

The bonnet sits level with the cowl when the rubber is in place. It is above the cowl in the photo because the latch needs to be adjusted to pull the bonnet down. Shims at the rear support of the side panel make the top of the side panel level with the bottom of the cowl.

Can't adjust the height of the firewall because it's bolted to the stiffener brackets. The cowl position is determined by the windshield holes in the quarter panel. The quarter panel is held in position by the nailing lip that traps the bottom main rail. (Could raise or tilt the cowl if I plane off thickness from the bottom of the bottom main rail so that the quarter panel can be raised.)

The top of the door is very close to the bottom of the cowl.

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211





LM Cook

With the new pictures the height looks good now. If you tightened everything together (ie had bolts in the firewall to body) it would seem you are there.

I am not aware of a way to do this without bolts (and drilling those holes). And that's a bit risky now until you are sure of the position.

Not doubting your new wood is correct but have you been able to obtain the thickness of these two pieces on an original car to verify?

The putty can be between 1/16" and 1/8" depending on how tight you want to do it. Probably plan on 1/6" but some places may be as much as 1/8".
Christopher Couper

Hi Lonnie, Of course I’ll get with u. Sunday or later Monday. Living in the COVID19 universe here. Talk to u soon! George
George Butz III

THANK YOU GEORGE BUTZ!!

Social distancing doesn’t have to keep MG folks from seeing and helping each other.

George and I used FaceTime tonight to see and discuss my progress on TF7211. I “flipped” my iPhone camera so that George could see the car as we talked. George is only about 60 miles from me but I could have done the same with an MG enthusiast half way around the world. A number of people can be on the call at the same time.

FaceTime is for Apple products.

“Zoom” is another video conferencing program that works on all digital devices. I believe that landline phones can participate too. Up to 40 people can participate on the free version. Easy to set up and use.

Chris - I’ll measure my old front rails and compare their thickness against my new ones.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie,

You seem to be nearly there !

The bonnet(hood) may need to come back toward the windscreen a little more. The bonnet corners seem to be a little too far forward (toward the front of the car) as evidenced by the bonnet corner is not sitting fully on the bonnet rest rubber ie. the bonnet corner is is not fully supported by the rest rubber.

Adjustment of the radiator/shell unit stays may assist in getting the bonnet back a little more. The bonnet would then line up a little better with the edge of the side engine panel.(slacken the radiator saddle nuts(2) off first !)

The side engine panel itself has a small amount of adjustment available as well. This why the lower holes in the engine side panel are eliptical in shape.

As you are aware, when all parts in this area of the car are actually bolted up, changes in gapping can also occur. Some changes for the good, some for the negative ! Bolting up is really necessary however.

I am sure you may have tried the above factors. Just trying to assist.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Thanks Rob. I'm always ready for your help.

I agree that the right bonnet is too far forward at the outer corners, but it is correct where the two halves meet and fits the grille shell well. I tried moving the radiator to the right which would rotate the bonnet half so the outer edge is tighter. Can't adjust any more. The radiator grille is 1/4" too far left. 1/8" movement to right would put it in the center. Not enough to rotate the bonnet.

The radiator and side panels are much better than when I started. Bends to the supports on top of the radiator for the grille. Shims on the side-panel supports at the radiator and firewall.

Both latch pillars were rotted at the bottom with no support when I disassembled the car, so everything at the front of the tub probably shifted. I'm trying to strike a happy medium between "correct" and "shifted."

George and I agreed that it's time for me to bolt the entire car together, but not screw the wood yet. Then see what areas need more work. Perhaps I'll learn what is needed to make the bonnet fit better.

> Do you know what size screws are used in the speednuts / Tinnerman nuts that hold the radiator grille shell to the radiator? #6? #8? #10? All of the nuts are broken or stretched from over-size screws. I found identical nuts in #6 and #10 size. None for #8 screws.

Thanks for your help,

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Lonnie,

I can't remember exactly what size the Tinnerman nuts were on the TF
radiator/shell area . '8' may have been the size.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

This thread was discussed between 27/03/2020 and 31/03/2020

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