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MG TD TF 1500 - Water pump pulley

Anyone ever had issues keeping the pulley tight on a classic gold water pump? Mine came loose again with a nyloc and a second nut as a backup. Turns out once we were able to get the nyloc off, the shaft was stripped. You would think the shaft would be case harden? For now we used washers as spacers so the nut would grab good threads. Eventually we will need to replace the pump again! I am thinking the quality of both the after market pump and pulley may be the issue? Any thoughts on this topic?


Thanks,
Rich
Rich King TD 8732

I've rebuilt the original late TD and TF water pumps (#24433) using readily available bearings, circlips, felt dust covers, new SS shafts turned up on a lathe and a seal with a ceramic face from a washing machine. This means that the original pump and pulley can be put back into service. By remove the shields from the opposing faces of the new bearings, the original grease nipple can be used to regularly service the unit. No reason why with care the rebuilt unit shouldn't outlast the owner. It seems most of the AM parts available today are crap which is one of the two major reasons to find ways to restore rather than to buy new. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Butch Taras in So Cal rebuilds them with a new tapered shaft, and machines your pulley to match. No more wobbly pulleys. He also installs a permanently sealed bearing, so no more grease gun either.
Steve Simmons

Steve I know Butch does good work and comes highly recommended. He was a big help when I was researching water pump repair. But I wonder just how long lasting permanently sealed bearings actually do last? Do they outperform bearings that get a regular top up with the appropriate grease? Is there research that shows this? The prepacked and sealed bearings must contain some pretty remarkable lubricant. Call me old fashioned but I do like the old school approach. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hi Guys,
I have used sealed bearings in pumps I have done for my cars and friends cars, but I always suggest that keeping the grease nipple serviceable is a worthy option. The logical way to do this (as Peter has suggested) is to use sealed bearings with the inner/opposing shields removed.

BUT NOTE: If the grease nipple is to be kept serviceable, there needs to be an exit for excess grease to get out. Otherwise, generous use of a grease gun might pop the outer shield out. There are other options but I think the best way of doing this is to use a Dremel tool to grind a small channel under the rear bearing. Excess grease can then exit (as original) by the existing rear drain hole.

Bob Schapel




R L Schapel


Rich, just a word of caution. I have a friend who had a TD water pump pulley come off and do a lot of damage to his radiator. In fact he is now replacing the damaged radiator and trying to get it to fit his chrome shell as I write this. My point in saying this is to tell you his experience so you won't make the same mistake. Recommend you replace the pump with a known good one quickly and check your pulley fit carefully.
Richard Cameron

Hi all. I have found over the years numerous pulleys that the bore has been worn so when you put it back on the shaft you can wobble it back and forth. Phil Marino fixed this problem by making a shaft with a taper on the end and machining a taper in the pulley. His shafts are a bitch to take a part and repair. Also if anything happened to the pump you can't just switch the pulley to another pump(problems always happens on the road in the middle of no where). What I do now is make a tapered collet to go on the shaft and a matching taper in the pulley. That way the pulley and collet can be used on any other standard pump.

Butch
R Taras

I don't have data to say exactly how long the sealed bearing will last, but I've never heard of one going bad. I have about 30,000 miles on mine and it's good as new. Several others in my local group run them as well. The water pump doesn't spin very fast and is not subjected to heavy loads. I feel this is a situation where a sealed bearing will outlast most owners.

I used to be dubois about sealed U-joints also, preferring to put fresh grease in them now and then. Last time I had my MGB driveshaft rebuilt (needed a custom length), they put sealed ones in since I didn't specify. So I left them. Gotta say, after 40,000 miles on that car since their installation it's really nice to not have to get under and grease those things, and they are still smooth with no play. I might be a convert at this point.
Steve Simmons

Some modern pumps seem to be built to a price, one aspect that illustrates this is the substitution of the locating shoulder on the shaft by a circlip. When the pulley securing nut is tightened, the inner race of the bearings and the spacer are put in compression against the shoulder.
However, the circlip is not secure enough to act as an effective end stop if the nut is tightened robustly and gradually becomes displaced, resulting in a loose pulley securing nut.
I'd be interested in knowing what type of washing machine seal can be used.
E A Worpe

Hi E. A. Worpe,

To answer your question, the seals we use in Australia are readily available. I get them from a general seal company named AESSEAL. The one which fits the later pumps is part number B03ABXS0127334. It fits straight in place of the original.

If you are converting an EARLY pump to the later system, there is a seal number N-B03U-ABX1-0127 which is the same but with a slightly smaller OD of 1.125". Hence it requires slightly less boring-out of the cast iron body but also requires fitting of a copper (or the included ceramic) seat on the impeller/shaft.

I guess these seals must fit some type of washing machine because that is what some people call them. When I have asked AESSEAL salesmen, they call them "Honda seals", and when asked about their application, they say they fit Honda firefighting water pumps etc. Unfortunately, they seem to run by part numbers, so they have limited knowledge of where they are used. I haven't bought any lately but I am pretty sure the 0 in the part numbers are all zeros, not an alphabetic letter O.

Cheers, Bob
R L Schapel

The seal that I use is from Pump Seal Supplies H68-127C-AXN-XX. F-12L Ceramic/Carbon Water Pump Seal. It doesn't require any modification to the pump body. I have a 'how to recondition' a TD/TF pump #24433 EA if you're interested. Thanks Bob for your mod in relation to allowing surplus grease to exit. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the information on the type of seals.
I've been using a seal similar to the original type, but it has a parallel sided section that fits in the bore rather than the tapered section of the original seal. This results in the seal's rather substantial lip, pressed against the edge of the bore being responsible for a leak free assembly.
Unfortunately the edge of the bore where the coolant enters the pump body is a narrow ledge, often corroded and fails to make a reliable seal.
Quite why they change good designs is puzzling.
Regards,
Eric.

E A Worpe

Thanks for all the info guys.

Steve Simmons do you have contact information for Butch Taras? I think I would like to talk to him about having my original pump rebuilt.

Thanks,

Rich
Rich King TD 8732

I’ve had two separate Tourist Trophy pumps (Moss) with the Ny-loc nuts fail to hold their torque. The failure was noted on the initial start up of dad’s car within 10 mins run time. Both failures caused damage to the pulley’s shaft bores.

Last week I ordered a new pulley from British Parts Northwest. It was a County brand piece. When I installed it the pulley fouled the pump and wouldn’t turn. When compared to the original pulley the County part sat proud nearly 3/8” from the pump’s base. Further inspection showed that machining operations had not been done correctly and a shoulder had been left instead of being cut away to clear the pump snout. I ended up reusing my old pulley with Loctite applied to the pump shaft threads hoping it will stay put until I return from GOFWest. BPNW customer service rep had left early Friday and no one else would be authorized to correct the issue until his return. None to happy to waste several hours of labor, a can of $22 spray paint from Moss and other sundries only to do the job again at a later date. I also decided to rid myself of those ill fitting wire hose clips for a set of Jubilees.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Hi Richard. Contact me at the above email address.

Butch
R Taras

Bill, I may have good pumps and pulleys on the shelf if you need to borrow one. I'd have to check.
Steve Simmons

This thread was discussed between 15/07/2019 and 03/08/2019

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