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Triumph TR3 - Cooling Alternatives

Okay guys - a question of performance vs praticality. I think I mentioned before that there's a TR6 fan on my TR3 (by the PO) This works great to keep the car at 185 even during summer, but since the original solid belt broke, I've since found there isn't room to change it. Are there any alternative methods besides electric fans for additional cooling? I've heard installing the TR6 fan backwards affords more room? I'll check that out, but doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I tried just about everything to get the room required, but no go. I really don't want to remove the valance until I swap out the radiator, but I want to be able to change the belt easily since I will be doing it again at some point. Any ideas? Thanks,
Mike Gambordella '56 TR3
Mike Gambordella

Mike-Having the fan that close to the rad. seems like inviting disaster-a sudden stop might allow the engine to move forward enough for the fan to contact the rad.If you are using the red 13 blade fan, could the thickness of the adapter be reduced? Have you tried levering the engine to the rear to replace the belt? When the rad is out, try altering the lower bracket holes to move the rad. forward. Maybe the PO can shed some light. The latest TRF catalog has Bob Schaller's "More BS About TR's" on sale. Highly recomended, he was the guru on overheating. On another note, I never had an overheating problem with my first TR3, which came with 83mm. pistons. My most recent TR3 had been fitted with the 87mm kit and hardly ever run under 185 deg. If the air temp was 90 deg., the gauge would be close to the next mark. Fitting the 87mm kit with the TR3 head not only increases the displacement, but also increases the CR from 8.5 to almost 9.5. This may account for some of the extra heat. Anyway, just a thought. There may be an electric fan and different rad. core in your future.
Berry

As for the fan belt, ask your "better half" or your "significant other" for a pair of panty hose. If they have a run in them, even better. That means they will "run" properly. Wrap them around (NO ! Around the pulleys), stretch it, tie the ends, and away you go. Take your sweety out too. She will feel she has contributed to the solution and she might be able to keep you warm, especially if you have no heater.

I know that there is a sectioned fan belt that you can buy at most auto parts stores. It is made of 1" to 2" pieces that seem to be riveted together. Buy enough for 24" and try it. You may have to cut it down to 19 or 20" then wrap in around the pulleys and attach it at the open ends. That'll keep you going.

I installed a 12" diam. electric fan in front of the rad. It is above the crank hole and covers the whole circle above that. I turn it on manually when the engine gets to 200 F.or more. In a minute or so, it drops to 180 F and stays there as long as I'm stuck in traffic. I made special brackets to support it because I didn't like their "engineered" way of attaching it with screw studs through the fins and held with flat washers and nuts.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Hi Guys:I too had the dreaded overheating problems.The first thing I did was replace the core in my 43 yr old rad.Secondly I installed an oil cooler with a thermostadt because I figured without one I would have molasses for oil on cold mornings.Thirdly I installed a fan for a TR250.If it is installed normally it is too close to the rad for comfort so I put it in in reverse which according to my research only gives a reduction of 7% efficiency(which is not much in the face of 100% improvement)also one must remember one looses 15% of rad efficiency just with the crank hole.However the proof of the pudding is in the eating because I can now easily handle traffic jams and the like even in the hotest of Southern Ontario weather.
The crank lug on the pulley shaft stands proud of the hub of the fan so there is no change in clearence to the rad but there is a problem between the fan and the upper cross member for belt replacement.However if you loosen the bolts holding the fan you could back them out far enough to slip the belt into place.If somebody does this I would suggest that he uses longer bolts in the fan so that he can loosen them and pull the fan out a little further.Also use regular lock washers instead of the lock tabs It wouldn't be easy to bend them back in there.
On the subject of fan belts has anybody got a report on the quality of Moss's "superior quality" cogged belt it is marked Bando RPF made in Japan.It is narrower than the original.Unfortunately the one recommended by Don is no longer available,according to UAP-Napa, and they offer 20A0980 which is the wide one and no fun to pass between rad and hub.
That's all for now folks.
Chuck

Well, it certainly seems Tr3's live up to their reputation for running on the warm side. I have a spare rad which I will have tested, and maybe re-cored. But what I will do about the fan I haven't decided and probably won't until it's apart. The end goal here being ease of maintenance with maximum cooling.

Berry, I thought of reducing the adapter, maybe having it turned down, but since the fan turns off the crank, it will have to kept in perfect balance no? Nice web site by the way.

Hey Don, pretty creative temporary fix, but how am I going to explain that extra pair of nylons in the glove box? "Honest honey, It's a road-side emergency kit!" Yeah, sure it is - what's her name? I never would have thought of using those. Great way out of a jam - sounds like something our Grandfathers would have done. Simplicity at it's best. Thanks guys.
Mike Gambordella
Mike Gambordella

Mike-Only the red 13 blade fan needs an adapter, the others bolt directly to the fan hub extension. If reversing the fan gives more clearance, it sounds like the easiest solution to the problem. If you are considering recoring the rad., inquire about an industrial core Modine 120315pl, which is supposed have 37 percent more cooling capacity according to Schaller. The cogged belts I have used were Goodyear, are they discontinued?
If anyone has access to the Feb. 1994 Road&Track, Peter Egan has a great article "Triumphs And Other Disasters" about his struggle to maintain a TR3.

Berry

Before I had my rad re-cored, Steve Hedke of TRSC in So. Cal. told me the difference between a 4-row and a 5-row core. I got the 5-row core when I had mine re-cored. An extra row seemed like a good idea. I also paid a bit extra for the crank hole which makes me lose about 15% on cooling, but has sure been a god-send when I had to use my hand-crank when at least 3 times, my starter would only "ZZZinggg" and wouldn't spin out. Twice I was about 200 miles from home and the hand-crank sure came in handy.

Oh yes, my TR still overheats in stop and go traffic, so i put in the electric fan.

As for the starter, I took it apart after I got home and sprayed some WD-40 into the part that should spin out and it was good for another 2 years - till it happened again and I had to use the crank again.

I also draw a lot of attention when I pull out my crank. People are amazed that a car like a TR3A has a hand-crank. So many people don't even know what a crank is. They are too young to remember. They would also be the same ones who would ask why car radios used to take 60 seconds after we turn it on before we can hear some music. Everyone is so used to instant this and instant that.

In fact the night before the Montreal Grand Prix, all the sportscars parked on Peel Street in downtown Montreal. I had a hand-crank competion right there. Everyone loved it. So did I. People are so used to hearing the starter motor grind and groan before a car starts, they are so amazed that a car can start so silently with one good turn on the crank. The guys with arms like Bobby Bonds always got it on the first turn.

Don Elliott, Having fun in my 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Chuck - I have a Bando replacement belt -
part # GCB40975 made in the USA. Some other #'s on the box - Bin # 3U12; T24 Fan belt-Cogged;
TRF-2806990000660. I have no idea what that last one is. I don't know how old this belt is, the PO gave it to me. I can find out if you like?

Berry - Yes I have the 13 blade red fan. I'm going to take the apron off (hopefully tomorrow) and then I'll try and figure out what's best. I'll let you know. Thanks for the re-core advice!!

Don - I didn't get a crank w/ my car, but I am going to make a point of getting one to add to my "road-side emergency kit". It's a good idea and kind of fun, really.

Thanks, guys - keep having fun.
Mike Gambordella '56 Tr3
Mike Gmbordella

Mike-Reducing the thickness of the adapter should help. It won't effect the balance.
Berry

First of all, the TR2 and TR3 had the metal scoop that directed the air straight into the rad. The first 6,000 or so TR3As overheated when it came summertime in 1958. My TR3A came with no air deflectors and when it got hot in 1958, S-T had to engineer a "fix" to cool the cars and so came up with the 3-piece cardboard and rivet air deflectors we all use now.

Make sure your TR has an air deflector installed on both sides of the rad and across the top. If you don't, the air will take the path of least resistance and flow around the outside of the rad. The air flow is not dumb. Why force yourself through the fins of a rad if you can flow around it with no effort ?

In traffic, my TR still overheats - that's why I have the electric fan.

Secondly, I have a theory as to why TRs overheat.

I think that when Ken Richardson was asked to test-drive the prototype, he found that he had to come up with ways to stiffen the frame, etc. The two front shock/spring towers were flexing in and out at the top on bumps and curves. So Ken and his development team installed the tubular cross support that we find today holding the two shock/spring towers rigid. This is the pipe that we see running across just in front of the engine. This pipe also makes it hard for us to change a fan belt.

But most of all, they had to take almost all the pitch off the blades on the fan so the blades would clear this cross support. There was (and still is) no room to have a fan with blades with enough twist on them to deliver enough air when the car is stopped in traffic on a hot summers day.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Gentlemen,

Related to this topic, I'm experiencing a slight loss of coolant through the overflow tube at the radiator cap neck. I had been observing a small puddle of coolant after each run. Thinking it was a radiator loose hose, I tightened them. After topping up the radiator I ran the car, parked it, then observed a small stream of coolant coming from the pressure release/overflow tube. The temperature gauge had never moved above 185 degrees.

Do I have an issue with my radiator cap? Is there another culprit I should be seeking?

Thanks for the help. Enjoy all that natural cooling up north!

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A
Bill Stagg

Bill - If the rad. cap reads 4 psi and looks new, that is correct. If you have a weak cap, less than 4 psi, the overflow will happen more readily. Don't try a cap with 6 psi or more. You will blow out the rad or something else with the "extra" pressure in the system.

The rad, when it is "topped up" will always do what you have written about. You should top it up to the point where you see or measure 1/2" of water/antifreeze mix in the bottom of the square box looking down inside with a flashlight after you remove the rad. cap.

I'll bet you that after it had "leaked" or "flowed out" as you say and you looked at the level, the level in that box was 1/2" above the bottom of the box. That's where it will stay afterwards.

For the same reason, I keep the oil level in my engine about mid-way between the two lines - down to the bottom line - as I find that it "pumps" out if I fill the oil level to the top line.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Hi Bill:I had the same problem as you but because a TR can use every bit of coolant it can get I set up a coolant recovery system as in modern cars, that way you can keep the rad totally full.
If you mount the container up on the shelf of the firewall on the right side and extend your overflow tube to the bottom of the container it will collect coolant when the engine is hot and draw it back in when it cools.
I used a Rubbermate type clear food container of the appropriate size,drilled a hole in the side very close to the bottom and siliconed in a spigot for the overflow tube and a hole for a breather in the lid.
Chuck

Don, Your theory on why TR's overheat makes sense. Many American "Hot Rods" have the same problem - too much stuff up front and fan blades which are nearly straight.
As for my car, I'm as yet unsure wheather or not it is something to worry about for several reasons.
1.I did not ask the PO why he had the TR6 fan put in.
2.I have not had the car long enough to test properly.
(and Mother Nature has just ended my season!)
3.The funnel effect of the small mouth TR3 scoop.
4.It may run hot, but not actually overheat.

So I guess I see a few options - I will have my spare rad tested/recored, then look at tuning down the adapter as Berry suggested OR put in a TR250 fan as Chuck did, OR I can re-install an original TR3 fan. Whatever is most economical and see what happens when I drive it on the next hot day.

This must seem trival, but I sure appreciate everyone's input - you guys have been great.
Thanks again, and all of you have a nice Thanksgiving. (is it okay to sit in my car and eat? Maybe show a movie on the garage wall)
Mike
Mike Gambordella

When I was doing my restoration from 1997 to 1990, I put in new pistons, sleeve liners and rings. I can assure you that I had really clean interior water passages in the block for ideal heat transfer. But when I got it going in 1990, (still with the original rad - flushed out), it still overheated. I had it re-cored with a new 5-row core and had them put the hole in for the hand crank.

But Canada had switched to lead-free "petrol". Maybe that makes it run hotter.

I run with the spark advance at best position giving me the best acceleration. I test it by "feel", not with a strobe light. If your spark is off-timing, the extra power lost will appear as wasted energy into the coolant and can (will) cause overheating.

Mine still overheated. I checked the temperature sensor. It was right on. When I re-did my instruments, I re-chromed all the rings around the gauges. I thought maybe I put the needle back on "hotter".

I needed a new water pump in 1987 but the one I bought didn't have the grease fitting (the bearing was "permanently sealed"). My neighbor offered to do it for me. He put in the grease fitting (for correct originality) as well as a stainless steel shaft so it will never rust out again and leak. We noticed that the new pump impeller was cast iron (original one had been brass) so we put the original one in the pump. I later heard about new pumps having a smaller impeller with more clearance and shorter blades so it pumps less coolant.

My pump is better than the original.

It still overheats in stop and go traffic. So I turn on my electric fan.

It still overheats on a hot day. At 80 mph, it gets hot - 185F. Then 200F - then even more. So I turn on my fan and the temperature gauge stops rising - but it won't drop. So I slow down a bit. But I don't worry about it.

A newer more efficient water pump is available from Ken Gillanders in Temple City, Calif. ken's e-mail is:- BFEkeng@aol.com Mention my name.

I used to blow head gaskets when I overheated driving up Whiteface Mountain near Lake Placid, New York (lovely roads). This was between 1960 and 1972 so, in 1987, I bought racing nuts from Ken (known him 15 years) to hold the head down onto the block. The original nuts are 1/2" high (10 full threads inside the nut at 20 TPI) while the new ones (Grade 8) are 7/8" high giving me 14 threads inside the taller nut. I've never had to change a head gasket since.

Keep cool - It's going to be about about 10 F here today and there is no way "TRusty" will overheat. Well that's because it's under it's winter blanket while I work on restoring the other one.

Keep warm - not too much turkey!

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A

Don Elliott

Hi all,

I picked up a 12" Hayden electric fan to install during my foray into the front end over the holiday break, and I'd appreciate any suggestions for managing the electrical connections, including where to draw power, fusing, type and location of a manual switch in the interior, and any modifications advisable for mounting the fan.

Many thanks!

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A
Bill Stagg

I mounted my 12" diameter Kenlowe fan (I bought it on a trip to England) between the grille and the rad and it pushes air into the rad when I'm stuck in traffic. On my fan, I could connect it one way and it pushes, connect it the other way and it draws. Ypou have to check it out which way is right for you.

I mounted a 15 amp. switch with a red light in the flip handle (for when it's on) on a small sheetmetal bracket barely visible under the dash between the steering wheel and the push button for the starter. In traffic, when I see the heat rising, I flip it on. Later I flip it off. I do not use the thermostat.

I burned out several switches until I added a relay (like for a horn or a headlight) in the circuit.

I took power directly from under the dash panel where the power goes to the key and/or the push (Starter). I took it so that if I switch off the engine when I park it and I'm ready to leave the car, I can hear the fan still running if I have inadvertently left it on.

The wire from the outlet of the relay goes through a small grommet hole in the firewall near the voltage regulator and is virtually hidden behind my cable harness under the carbs going forward. For the ground return, I brought the wire back from the fan and grounded it near where there are other "bullet" connector grounds under the RHS horn.

I mounted the fan so as to leave the crank hole clear. A 12" fan fits nicely above that hole. To mount the fan, they provided some 4" long 10-32 UNC machine screws with large flat plastic washers to fit through holes in the fan where these screws pass in between the fins of the rad and are then "tightened" against the fins. I call that "Mickey Mouse" Engineering. (Sorry Walt) - Disney that is.

So I made 2 channel brackets that hold the motor in the center of the fan using 4 screws on the OD of the motor housing. The brackets are made out of sheetmetal with holes to make them lighter and to allow air to pass through the holes too. These 2 channel brackets go across the rad from one side to the other and then turn 90 degrees backwards towards the vertical side rails on the rad. I drilled and tapped 4 holes with #10 - UNF threads and put 4 hex head bolts to hold the 4 ends of the bracket to the side rails of the rad. You have to do this when the rad is out or at least when the valance is off. It works fine. Careful when you drill and tap through the vetical side rails of the rad that you don't "puncture" the tubes in the rad. The first row of cooling tubes is about 1/2" away from the inside of these rails.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Thanks for the details, Don. I'd like to think I can solve the overheating problems before they start next summer.

As my rad most likely has never been recored, I plan to have it tested and examined for wear. If it's a candidate for recoring, and I want to keep the crank hole open, what's the average range of cost for getting this done, and are there particular procedures or services that should be requested in the process? What exactly is entailed with having a rad "tested"?

Thanks.

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A

Bill Stagg

There are four considerations. Is it clean inside (is the liquid that comes out look the right colo(u)r or is it all rusty and full of silt or crud)?

Is there enough flow getting through ? Ask at a couple of rad re-core places if this can be done.

Pressure/Leak test. Any rad shop will plug up the two big outlets and close the stop-cock. Then the will put on a radiator cap with a compressed air hose connection and they will check for leaks at 4 psi. Don't let them go higher. Any higher pressure will swell out the tubes which will move the fins away from the tubes reducing the heat transfer and might cause even worse cooling - and maybe a higher pressure will create a leak when it's not leaking now.

If the fins look green and rusty, there is poor heat transfer. If there are zones where the fins are no longer soldered to the cooling tube, this will cause it to overheat.

If ythe fins are bent or damaged, or if a PO has had a leak repaired, there will be less air-flow (and maybe les fluid flow too) through the rad.

Ask about a 5-core vs a 4-core. I had a 5-core installed. It's a little more. I had them put in a hole for the crank. It cost me more but it has been handy. I bought a new crank from Moss in 1990. The rad was re-cored in 1992 in Canada. Ask several local rad shops for quotes.

Make sure that they don't talk you into new side rails and headers you have now at the top and bottom of you present rad. Unless they are so rusty and full of holes.

If you are mounting a fan, drill 4 holes and tap them while it's out - to bolt on the fan and/or the brackets. If you want I could look for the photos I made of my brackets and send them.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A

BTW, I still didn't receive your $20.00 check for the 2-hour Mid-Ohio Triumph 2002 Race Video (including shipping) you said you wanted to buy from me. Anyone else want an NTSC VHS copy, e-mail me for details.
Don Elliott

Bill, check up the thread a bit for info. from Berry on a Modine recore #120315 pl also known as the
"L-core". According to Bob Shaller's book, this is supposed to be 37% more efficient. Also check one of Don's threads up further for info. on a new, more efficient water pump from Ken Gillanders in Temple City, Calif. ken's e-mail is:- BFEkeng@aol.com
I contacted him already - it's about $115 bucks and delivers more water to the block.
Mike
Mike Gambordella

Don, Thanks for the guidance on the rad. I'll let you know how it turns out.

It's been a hectic time at work and home, but not to worry. One official U.S. government portrait of Andrew Jackson is already winging its way via airmail to your door. Let me know when he arrives.

Mike, Thanks for the reminders on the Modine and the water pump. In an unusual show of restraint, I'm going to take this one step at a time and see how I fair with a clear rad and the electric fan. A different water pump is the fall back position.

By the way, I heard you've moved a TV into the garage to watch football from the TR's front seat. Any truth to that?

Thanks, Gents.

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A
Bill Stagg

Bill, I was afraid that a TV in the garage would prevent me from getting anything at all accomplished.
Then again, depending on how the work was progressing, I might want some distraction.
Which brings me to an inspiration prompted by your question. Maybe this coming summer, I should film some of my drives through the countryside. Then come the middle of winter next year, when we're all bored to death, we can heat up the garage, put on shorts, grab some beers and popcorn and watch a good movie! Just imagine some of the "special effects" that could be added for fun.
You know, handing your passenger a steering wheel -"hold this a minute, will ya?" Skidding sounds while moving the camera around during filming, etc.
After all, they call us British car nuts, don't they?

Anyway, how's your project coming? Have you solved your turn signal dilema? I've removed entire front end and anticipating the timing cover removal this wknd., then going underneath after that.
Good luck, Bill - keep the faith.
Mike Gambordella '56 TR3
Mike Gambordella

Mike,

My turn signal problem is no more. Turned out to be a miswiring of the leads coming from the steering control head (see the thread for details of my glorious "triumph."). I am, however, about to dissect the control head to see if I can increase the frequency of successful turn signal cancellation (currently running around 30%, right and left). Armed with tremendously helpful information supplied from Don and others, I'll be taking the plunge next week.

My primary assault on the front end will happen post Christmas as well. I've been accumulating parts to make the next two weeks truly engrossing as I install a heater, wiper assembly, front bumper and electric fan, examining other items along the way. I'll also be following up on everyone's suggtions on plugging holes in "dike" to slow the flow of oil. My Dutch heritage should prove valuable here.

Regarding your contemplated "action video," I fully support you doing the honors and then making the results available to others of us on the BBS. Just be sure no TRs are actually harmed in the course of production.

Happy holidays,

Bill
Bill Stagg

This thread was discussed between 20/11/2002 and 19/12/2002

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