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Triumph TR3 - Turn Signal Out

Let the electrical games begin…

My right side turn signal is not functioning, but it works fine on the left. Here’s what I think I know:

1. When the right turn signal is activated, nothing at happens. Zilch.
2. The signal bulbs on the right side are good (I’ve swapped them to the left side and they operate properly).
3. The front right signal light illuminates when the headlights are activated.
4. When the left turn signal is activated, the left front and rear signal lamps work and the signal indicator lamp on the dash flashes.


What I don’t know:

1. I cannot determine where the wires for the steering control head exit the steering shaft. Where do they connect to the rest of the wiring harness?
2. Can the steering control head be dismantled to troubleshoot the signal switch?
3. Can I assume my flasher unit is working given that the left turn signal operates properly?
4. Is the signal path such that, if there is any short in the circuit, all functions on that side will be cut (i.e., the dash panel light, front light and rear light)?

As a good friend used to advise me, "RTDM" (read the damn manual), but TRF has them on back order for several more weeks.

Any advice from you highly charged electricians will be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A, Commission #TS67947L
Bill Stagg

Bill-The control head wiring comes out of the front of the steering gear.Check the bullet connectors near the end. The control head can be withdrawn a few inches by loosening 3 set screws in the steering wheel hub. Be carefull not to put too much strain on the wiring. The unit can be disassembled by removing the screws on the back side. It is kind of like taking a watch apart or disarming a bomb. Lots of small parts and springs.It is possible that your problem is one of the contacts. I would try to eliminate everthing else first.
Berry Price

Bill - If the left works, the flasher unit is OK. If it clicks off after making a left turn and you straighten out, the control unit works (at least for clicking off that side). What happens if you click on the chrome lever above the horn buttom, then off, then on, then off, etc. etc.?? If it flashes, you have at least a "manual" way of signalling that you are planning to turn right. It's not like you want to turn left and you are in the middle of a 2 lane highway at night stopped for on-coming traffic and you have no left signal light for the guy coming up behind you !! At least the left side is OK.

If it doesn't "flash" on the right side as above, check the wires on the right side where they connect just behind the RHS horn and in front of Carb #1. Pull apart the "bayonet" connectors and clean them. Use a fine file. Then do as all the TR6 guys "preach" on their web-site. Use lots of di-electric grease on the connectons and re-insert them. It may only be a poor ground connection where the ground wire coming back from the directional signal lamp is grounded to the sheetmetal body via a small clip attached with a screw to the horizontal body part just behind and below the rhs horn.

Let us know what you find.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Berry and Don,

Merci to you both for the quick response and guidance. The problem persists, but here's new information:

1. When the left and right leads from the steering control head are reversed so that the right turn signal lead is feeding the left side lights (i.e., the green/white lead exiting the steering column is connected to the green/red circuitry of the left side lights), the right turn signal switch operates properly (albeit driving the left side lights). Conversely, when the left turn signal lead from the control head is connected to the right side lighting circuit, it does not operate properly. This leads me to conclude the problem does not reside in the control head, but rather in the right side lighting circuit.

2. Continuity has been verified from the right side lead coming from the control head (green/white) throughout the rest of the car to the light fixtures. All bayonet connections have been cleaned.

3. I have verified the ground coming from the front right turn signal light fixture (just as you suggested, Don, there was a broken connection in that run) and in the ground at the rear. Both now check out.

I believe I've confirmed continuity throughout the lighting circuit on the right side, but still no go.

One question I have: will both front and rear turn signals on one side cease to function if there is a break in either of the wires feeding them? That is, if there is a break in the wire running to the rear turn signal, will the front signal cease to function, or should it continue to operate regardless?

Thanks for all your help gentlemen. Tonight, it's been perversely enjoyable getting to know my way around the TR's schematic and wiring circuitry, but tomorrow I'm ready to score a win.

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A, Commission #TS67947L

Bill Stagg

Score!!!

Mark down one '61 TR3A as having fully-functioning turn signals! It turns out that you should never, never assume...

The car was wired incorrectly from the control head leads on. The green/red lead from the control head (for the working left side signal) was wired into the green/brown lead that ran to the flasher unit. The green/brown lead from the control head was wired into the green/red wire to the left side lights. That meant that the flasher would work, but only on the left side. It also meant the right side (green/white) was denied access to the flasher unit.

Stumped, I finally decided to trace the other leads coming from the flasher unit to verify their paths, and that led to the discovery of the mis-wiring.

The PO apparently lived with this problem for a decade or so. He suggested that it might be a "bad bulb" in the front or back.

What a terrific rush of endorphins! I love this hobby!

Thanks to all for your advice and offers to send the electrical schematic. I did manage to get the old "owners manual" from TRF, and I had the schematic enlarged 200 percent to help these bleary eyes follow the electron flow.

On to the next challenge!

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A
Bill Stagg

Signals, Part II

Happy to have turn signals working in both directions, I'm turning my attention to the intermittent cancelling function in the control head on the steering wheel. As in Vegas, I've got about a 30 percent chance of the turn signal switch being cancelled after the steering wheel returns to home coming out of a turn. I'd like to increase those odds, if possible.

Before I dive into the control head as outlined in the posts above, what is the likely problem to be solved here, and can I anticipate it by securing a part beforehand or being ready to apply a fix once the control head is opened?

Trying for a sure thing...

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A, comm no. TS67947L
Bill Stagg

I took mine apart and put it back incorrectly. My odds were 50%.

But after a turn right, it cancelled 100% of the time.

When I turned left it cancelled 0% of the time.

I took it apart again and found what I had done wrong.

What are your odds after a left turn ?

Right?

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Don,

My odds are even on both sides. Is it a matter of making an adjustment inside, or just the magic that occasionally happens when we disassemble, clean and reassemble things?

Thanks.

Bill
Bill Stagg

Bill-I think there is a video available from TRA on control head rebuilding. Also, TRF latest catalog has control heads on sale for $99.95. Individual parts aren't available new (I think). If you are still looking for heater and wiper parts, add this guy to your list: Barry Nelson-bnelson52@hotmail. Nice guy with a trailer load of TR3 parts, including a couple of 3 synchro OD mainshafts.
Berry

Don't take it apart till you get all the detailed instructions. If you need them, e-mail me your street address off line at elliott_tr3a@hotmail.com and I can mail them to you. I have 2 pages from TRF and 2 pages from "Technicalities" of the British TR Register as well as one sketch of my own.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A

Don Elliott

Don, I'd love to have details (and your artwork). My home address is on the way. Many thanks.

Berry, Thanks for the tip on Barry Nelson. The e-mail I've sent keeps getting returned due to a bad address. Can you doublecheck it?

We'll give this a DIY roll of the dice. If I come up craps, there's always the TRF sale...

Thanks, gents. Happy Thanksgiving to our neighbors up north!

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A
Bill Stagg

Bill - The problem may or may not lie in the control head. It may be that the brass hex nut which tightens the gland (or olive as I call it) at the front end of your steering box in merely loose. If so, the long tube from the control head may be rotating. Once you get all the info, data sheets, etc, check that it may be the "key" stampings in the short tubular piece coming out the hidden end - behind the control head. They may be worn away. These keys fit into a slot in the long tubular rod (like a key in a key-way) to prevent the tube from rotating. I saw one case where this slot had been forced and it got wider, so the keys were loose in the slot.

Inside the control head, one of the springs (Items 8 and/or 9) that cancel may have become weak or rusty. It may be that the grease in there is too old and too thick.

Check it out before you buy stuff. You've got all winter.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Great to follow the threads on this one - and see almost everything solved. I have a related puzzler on my 1960 TR3A. Signals work fine for left, but not for front right (bulb OK). When idling I'm not likely to have the indicator or rear signal work, but if reved decently while driving, both indicator and rear signal work. Does this sound like a bared wire somewhere?

I think Bill's line "Let the electrical games begin" is most appropriate.
Dennis Nelson

Dennis

If the flasher unit works as it should for the LHS, then we can assume the flasher unit is OK.

It sounds to me like your motor mounts may be old and flexing. If this is true and you rev the engine the engine will torque to the right at the top. That is, the carb filters will move over and almost touch the inner wall of the inner fender. Maybe the carb filters are rubbing or hitting (impacting) the inner fender if the mounts are rally bad.

If so, a wire to the directional signals or a ground return (bullet connector to frame clip normally found under rear of RHS horn) may be intermittantly closing and then opening again.

Or it may just be that a connection is disconnected and when you rev, the vibration make the connection touch for a moment. The same could happen if a wire to or from the dirctional signal is cut and the strands of the wire are only touching for a moment when you rev the engine.

The woes of Lucas, "The Prince of darkness" or maybe we can say its a henious plot against us all by El Quaeda.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

Dennis,

In the spirit of cooperation in "the games", I humbly offer the following suggestion. It was going to be my next step in troubleshooting my own turn signal gremlins chronicled above.

If you have a spool of wire to spare, try bypassing each of the wiring harness runs by temporarily installing new wire runs from all the major points. That is, clip in place temporary wire from all points currently hooked up in the turn signal path while disconnecting the corresponding wiring harness runs. I suggest doing this one wire at a time, then testing the system for operation. If the problem persists, leave the new wiring bypass in place and go on to the next one. Eventually, you might find the defective wiring connection/run, or at least eliminate them as a source of the problem. I realize you can also test for continuity (which I had done), but even that didn't readily zero in on the miswiring I discovered later.

I'd love to know what solution you discover (and may it come quickly for you).

Happy hunting.

Bill Stagg
1961 TR3A
Bill Stagg

Dennis-Since the turn signals work with the gen. charging, it is possible that your battery might be the problem or resistance from corroded connections. Also, as Bill found with an earlier turn signal problem, don't assume that the flasher is correctly wired or even the correct unit.
Berry

Here's one for you, guys.
Turn signals work fine all around. Indicator on the dash flashes once after you flip on the turn signals, only once. What is going on there??
Marty Scott

Marty - It sounds to me as if your warning light on the dash is wired to the side of the flasher unit where your "clicker" in the steering control head sends the signal (power in) into the flasher. This would turn on the dash warning lamp. I assume the warning lamp stays on all the time your are making the turn around the corner.

If it were connected to the "out" connections that send the flashing message and power to the directional lamps at the front and back of your TR, the warning lamp on the dash would flash on and off as the corner lights are flashing.

Check the wiring diagram as well as the wire colo(u)rs and connections on the flasher unit.

I'll send you off-line a document I got from Clive in England entitled "Info on the TR3 Control Head"

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliorr

Greetings all,
I've been following this thread as I too have turn signal issues. My electrical (bulbs, flasher, dash indicator) all work flawlessly, but neither side self-cancels. I've been canceling them manually which is certainly something I can live with, but at some point I'll want/have to correct this.
Don, are the drawings/technical pages you offer up any more explicit than the factory/Haynes manual versions? Would you be willing to mail me copies? I'd cover your postage and then some. Any advice here would be great - control head removal sounds a little hairy.
On an un-related matter - I've removed the timing cover and the oil pan, both of which show indentations at the bolt locations. Some people have told me to reverse those with a slight tap of a ball pean hammer, then use gasket cement, etc. I saw this method on a link here: running a bead of form-a-gasket on the oil pan, placing the gasket on the goop, turning the pan over on a flat surface overnight to set, then bolting it back up. Anyone ever try this?
Also, the factory manual does not recommend anything but a bit of grease to hold the timing cover gasket in place - nothing else?
The ball pean trick doesn't hold much appeal.
Thanks all, for any help you can give.
Merry Christmas eveyone -
Mike Gambordella '56 TR3
Mike Gambordella

Mike - Removal is not hairy. I comes apart very easily. In fact it can "spring" apart with no effort at all - once you have all the screws apart and start to lift off the retaining plates. It's the "putting it back together" that's the problem.

What I have will certainly help.

I sounds to me that your control head is the problem. If you have it apart, you will see two separate pointers like an inverted "V" with a split down the center of the "V". This inverted "V" should go in between the two "thingys". My papers show how and where all the springs go. Once you have it apart, you may find you are missing parts that some PO (previous owner) has lost or couldn't re-assemble correctly.

In another thread I wrote about the slot in the inner tube (about 1/2 inch diameter) and the "embossed spline" or key that is supposed to go in the slot like a key in a keyway. Mine was turning out the slot and it wouldn't cancel. I cut and bent a new length of sheetmetal that I rolled into the shape of a tube and welded it into place, cut a new slot with a hachsaw, and it works fine now. A friendly body shop would do this for you for about a tenner.

If it is beyond repair, a new Control Head seems like the best solution. They have come down in the last 5 years from about $330.00 to about (I think) $90.00 recently.

Look about 10 threads up above (Nov.27th) where you will see my e-mail address and send me your home address so I can send you copies of what I have.

Buona Natale

Don Elliott
Don Elliott

Marty-I remember having the same scenario-the indicator light flashed once or twice but the flashers continued to work normally. I never found the cause, but thought it might have something to do with using a generic aftermarket flasher unit.
Berry

This thread was discussed between 11/11/2002 and 23/12/2002

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