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Triumph TR6 - Brake fade

Gentleman,
My 74 1/2 TR6 is suffering recently from pedal fade, most likely due to the fact that I seem to have a small leak somewhere in the master cylinder. I see a small amount of brake fluid under the cylinder. When I pump the brakes repeatedly, I have pressure again. Is this an easy fix, where do I start? Much Thanks.
Jeff
Jeff Hall

Jeff Hall,

Assuming you are sure your master cyl. is leaking the following procedure would solve the problem:

1. Bleed the system dry.
2. Remove the master cylinder, dismantle and clean
3. Inspect the inside of the cyl. bore for scoring, roughness, wear.
4a. If master cyl. bore is not good, send it out to a shop along with your rebuild kit. They will hone it and apply a rebuild kit.
4b. If master cyl. bore is ok, then order a rebuild kit and use the kit to replace all the seals etc. Easy procedure, no special tools required.
5. Re-install the master cyl.
6. Install new brake hyd fluid and bleed all the air out of the system to a firm pedal.
Done.

TR6 brake systems are as simple as a brake system gets. If you don't understand brake systems to begin with, then just take it in to the shop.

JP
John Parfitt

Hi Jeff

First off my sincerest wishes for a better day and situation in your state real soon.

You are finding brake fluid under your master cylinder? Is there wetness actually on the bottom of master or below it on other areas? See if you can localise exactly were your leak is. The fluid will migrate. Take a couple of pieces of paper towel and dab under each connection. The leak point will be wettest. Might be at at the back seal area or one of the pipe connections or the pipes they do get rotten after a while. Can also be the gasket between reservour and cylinder.

Let us know we will try to help.

Bill
B Brayford

Seems to be leaking mostly between the reservoir and the cylinder. Is this just simple gasket that can be replaced? If I have it all out I might as well change everything that pertains? Right?

Thanks. Jeff
Jeff Hall

Jeff
Yes there is an o ring between the 2 pieces. In fact there are 2 seals. YES!! do a rebuild since you have it in hand. Also I recall that you should use the Girling(??) rebuild kit as the other off shore one is crap....open to correction here from anyone.
Follow John Ps procedure. When I had mine rebuilt they actually sleved it as it was scored/pitted to the point of honing would not be enough. I feel that sleving is better than just honing it. Honing will increase the 2 diameters. Honing only gets rid of surface rust and does not get rid of the deep in the metal pitting. Do not attempt to just try to clean the insides yourself..it will not work. There are 2 different diameters inside, one for front brakes the other for back brakes (front and back respectivly in the unit). You are dealing with, shall we say, an important function on your car.
If u are currently using DOT 4 then continue to do so..do not introduce DOT 5 (silicone). Castrol LMX DOT 4 best DOT4 brake fluid. There are GIGABYTES on this subject in past threads. DOT 5 is the prefered choice of fluid in antique winter sleeper hydraulic systems but is more work and cost to do a switch over. This would definitely be the time to do it though.
I am sure someone on this BBS knows where in the US to have it resleved/rebuilt...make sure they use the better rebuild kit.
Remember! DOT 4 likes paint for all 3 meals.
My baby goes to sleep this weekend.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Jeff
Just got a brain nudge while at the Buckeye site "bleeding and adjusting brakes". Do not forget the recentering of the PDWA, otherwise you will be wondering why your brake warning light is on after the bleed (assuming Joseph Lucas has not already eliminated it for you:)
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Jeff--As Rick C. sez, try just replacing the O-rings between the reservoir and the MC body. If that works, you're on your way. If not, consider the cost of a professional rebuild versus a new unit from LBCCo/TRF/ebaY. A rebuilder frequently mentioned is:

http://www.applehydraulics.com/index.htm

Ultimately you'll want to convert to the purple silicone (DOT 5) too.

Rick O.
72 Six
Rick Orthen

Rick O- Don't even start that up again!
Don K.
DON KELLY

Ah..come on Don...it would be fun adding a few more GIGABYTES on this subject. Rick O would be glad to tell us all what happens when you mix DOT4 with DOT5..he is our resident scientist ya know:)
Rick Crawford

Ah, come on folks, that glycol-silicone thread wasn't that bad!

Rick "The Scientist" O.
72 Six
Rick Orthen

Brake Fluid,

Just put some DOT3 in there. People would have you believe all your seals are going to melt. Come on - it's just a car. I run DOT3 in my Taurus and it seems to get me slowed down when required. I havn't replaced seals (or brake fluid) in 6 years!

John ("the Economist") Parfitt
John Parfitt

John
You can still buy DOT 3?

I do not have a problem with you putting DOT3 in your Found On A Road Dead car.

UUUMMM...sorry to disagree with you my friend, but I will stick with good old silicone for my baby.
Rick "the Preserveist" Crawford

Ha Don K....here we go.....
Rick Crawford

Pressing buttons,

Just kidding. I agree with you about the DOT5, I used it for a couple years - really easy on the seals since it doesn't absorb water but softer pedal. I like DOT4 the best.

I hate that Ford of mine. Even if it has 24 valves and 200hp - disgusting fleet car. That's why I always look forward to rolling out the TR in the spring.

JP
John Parfitt

Jeff,

I got a rebuilt master cylinder and front calipers from Apple this past summer. Apple had a pretty explicit warning in the package to use only DOT3, but I don't remember why. It was probably related to the issue of having to do the whole system at once as these guys have mentioned, but if you take the advice of having Apple do the rebuild, you might want to make sure Apple will stand behind DOT 5. But they were really excellent to work with.

Since the paint job is not show quality on my daily driver, I live with the shame of DOT 3. Plus, with the recent rebuild on parts, I'm at least for the moment, leak-free-so the paint's safe for a while.

Mark
Mark H

You southern folk who can drive your 6s all year round do not have a problem like us northern gentlemen who are concerned with water absorbsion in a car that sleeps like beauty all winter long.
That is weird Apple would say that..it is old technology fluid.
Does Apple use DOT 3 in their rebuild/assembly of systems...if so then yes, do not use DOT5 or say to them do not assemble using DOT3.
Rick c
Rick Crawford

From a strict liability standpoint, I completely understand Apple's position on DOT 3 for these legacy MC's.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

What I meant to say was that if you choose Apple for the rebuild, you ought to make sure the parts they use are compatible for DOT 5. I don't know if there are different grades of o-ring, etc that are certified for DOT 5, and maybe its simply a custom request item. If they're adamant about it, you might decide to shop for another vendor.

By the way Rick, what we gain in the winter months down here, we pay for with hot, humid weather in the summer that's not much fun for top-down. Night driving only. I haven't got the bug yet to try to install A/C. In July/August, believe me I wish I was up there.

Hmmmmm, maybe I should start a thread on air conditioning......
Mark H

Mark
Now wouldn't that look wierd...a TR6 driving around in the summer with the top up and all windows up!
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Hey Rick C.
This summer while I was trying to stretch out a new top
I had it up alot more than I wanted to, but I can tell
you with the windows down and rear window unzipped
I was actually cooler than with the sun beating down
on me. Speed might have been a factor.
Chris
Christopher Trace

Yeah right Chris

"Speed MIGHT have been a factor" sez the guy with the big honkin V8 under the hood.
I've heard a Boeing cools down real fast with a couple of windows open to.

Bill
B Brayford

This thread was discussed between 23/10/2002 and 03/11/2002

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