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Triumph TR6 - Clutch
|Well, short weekend home, and off to the garage to spend some time with the 6.Decided to replace the clutch...just because I have a new one, and don't know the age of the old one, and of course the body is off in the body shop. So started to take of the gear box, no problem there, started to take of the clutch/flywheel bolts, found one had been sheared by previous owner, and then to my horror I broke one off. So I am going to buy a new set of easyouts....try again in two weeks.....do you folks have any good advice? Ok I thought I would get on with the release bearing....mmmm noticed that someone had welded the release fork bearing to the cross shaft (see pic)...is this ok?|
Bob Evans I will drop in and see you this week.
Get some Aerokroil. It'll make life a LOT easier for you.
|Release bearing first, as long as it is positioned correctly to operate, the weld is a good one and you can get enough movement to remove and replace the bearing it's OK from a functional standpoint. However, if you need to replace the shaft bushings for example, you will have to cut the shaft and then replace the shaft, the fork and the pin in addition to the bushings. As an aside, when I replaced my bushings and cross shaft, I used the TR-4 version of the shaft and some bushings from McMaster-Carr. The earlier cross shaft is set up to provide lubricant to the bushings and the McMaster bushings were better quality than the TR-4 bushings. Another consideration is that the TR-6 bushings are significantly narrower than the TR-4 bushings and the ones from McMaster.|
As for the broken bolts, that's a nasty one. Assuming that you have the stock steel flywheel, give the fasteners and the flywheel a bit of heat cycling to help break up any corrosion products in addition to the Aerokroil.
Finally to the clutch components. If you are using a Gunst release bearing do not use a Borg and Beck clutch cover/pressure plate. They are not compatible, I have very frustrating repeat the process data from this. Later they started posting this information on the Gunst site but too late to do me any good. If you are using a Gunst bearing, go Sachs for the rest of the clutch components
Unfortunately I have the new clutch, pressure plate, gearbox assembly all put together as you know but fortunately have the spare gearbox with all the parts I removed visible for comparison purposes and I have the old cross shaft that I originally drilled for the additional securing bolt. I also have an aluminum drift for pushing out the old cross shaft bushings. Worst case scenario I also have a flywheel if yours is pooched. Looking forward to your next visit and hoisting a wee dram.
|DO NOT USE the GUNST|
|DNK Don Kelly|
I am using Borg & Beck clutch that came with the release bearing.
|Com'on Don, TRF does such a good job promoting it!|
|From what I've read on it I think Don knows whereof he speaks regardless of TRF's good marketing. just sayin':0)|
|First a correction, I had previously said go Sachs if using a Gunst bearing, that should be LUK, my error.|
I am a bit curious though about what Don and Bob are saying with respect to the Gunst bearings. What I've seen where there was a problem it has mostly been related to using it with a B&B clutch cover. As I indicated above, I have data on that as I had a Gunst/B&B issue as an early user before it was known that there was a compatibility issue (at least known over on this side of the water). My problem was related to inconsistent clutch actuation as much as anything else (not a hydraulic problem or mechanical link problem, those were the first suspects). I also heard of one mea culpa and a resulting problem where the dowels weren't used, but that is an installation error that led to a problem.
Where are you seeing these Gunst problems and what is their nature as I would like to dig into them a bit more. It's a matter of should I develop a sense of foreboding or not based on what is seen.
|Oh, I'm in agreement with Don, I just wonder why TRF try's so hard to sell people on the thing. I think they got a "bulk" buy on them and now must get rid of'em somehow.|
|"JT White, Orange Park,FL, firstname.lastname@example.org|
Oh, I'm in agreement with Don, I just wonder why TRF try's so hard to sell people on the thing. I think they got a "bulk" buy on them and now must get rid of'em somehow"
JT, I don't know that TRF is doing what I would call a hard sell on them or pushing them. It looks to be just another offering based on what I was seeing in the "Glove Box" catalog or in the back of the "Green Book" with the high performance parts and kits.
I already understood from your earlier post that you agree with Don. Problem is that it doesn't answer the question posed to you and to Don. To repeat, where are you seeing these Gunst problems and what is their nature? How about posting up some URLs for threads discussing these for example, give some specifics, etcetera and so on. Again as stated above, what I've seen where there were problems it involved B&B clutches or leaving out the dowels. Those are known issues, I want to know about issues on installation and running with properly matched components and proper installation, so if you got 'em, list 'em.
|From TRF's glovebox companion>>>>>A new high-tech throw-out bearing has been developed by a German Triumph enthusiast named Joachim Gunst. The bearing is very high quality,and it is mounted on an especially machined bronze sleeve. The bearing is meant to turn all the time, eliminating the shock and wear of the bearing contacting the fingers on the pressure plate each time the pedal is depressed.As the bearing turns all the time, the kit also includes a spring, bracket, and instructions for installing an assembly which will keep the bearing constantly located against the fingers. This new bearing is expensive, and it has attracted the interest and endorsement of several well-known Triumph enthusiasts, and of course, it has been copied. TRF sells genuine bearings available only from<<<<<<<|
When one uses words like "high-tech" "very high quality" "attracted interest and endorsement of well known...." (of course there is no listing of these people by name) these are statements in advertising that are designed to "push/sway" a buyer. It's my interpretation anyway. Also I've heard some negative comments in Brit car circles on problems with it, it may very well be due to incompatability issues, sorry no official "facts" just conversation and opinions (last time I checked I do seem to run in British car circles) I also don't appreciate the "personal" nature of your post and it is gleaming of that "other" board some here have moved on from.
here's one forum beef on the gunst....many more out there, google it...
>>>>>I went through the trials and tribulations of a Gunst installation, not once, but three times. Because I'm a thick head and really try to use the best of everything and that bearing WAS being touted as the best at the time, I did it over and over again, to no avail.
I finally ended up with a TRF Magic Kit and the Koyo bearing, that I'm very happy with.
Now to be fair, I used it with the Borg & Beck, which it was supposed to be compatible with, but that has since been proven to be incorrect. I replaced everything that could possibly be replaced, so I know that it was done correctly.
I think that my biggest beef would be with Mr. Gunst. Dave at TRF was great, even though I got nothing back for all of the labor, I did get refunds on the bearings. Mr. Gunst and I had several exchanges via email and his arrogance was just a bit much for me and that's when I finally gave up on the product and was bound and determined to not let anyone make the same mistakes that I did. He is not concerned one bit about any type of customer relations, other than "I'm right and you're wrong" perspective.
Here are the pictures of a Gunst after very few miles and what the results are of dragging a bearing on a pressure plate all of the time.<<<<<<<
Known this guy a long time and when there is a problem he researches it thoroughly.
A good read
|DNK Don Kelly|
|JT, there was no personal attack intended, just quoting your post and then my take on TRF "pushing" the Gunst bearing and that there was no answer the question posed.|
Now to the issue noted where you quoted from someone's post (no URL provided but I can think of multiple potential threads on that car). I am aware of the situation on that car, it also happens to be the same car where Don has the URL shown in his post. I have seen where this same person/car was posted in other threads, that's why I recognized it. In this case, the issue is the use of a B&B clutch cover and that is a known incompatibility with the Gunst bearing. When I pulled on the user name from one of those threads, I did come across a one post I hadn't seen before from another person mentioning that the bearing carrier is hanging on the transmission snout/sleeve.
I have also found some reference to a bad run of bearings, but little on installation or use issues. Were they all/most replaced before they gave anyone a problem? Was there really a run of bad bearings? Don't really know those answers as I'm not seeing much in the way of problems in these threads, but have seen several posts saying good things about the Gunst bearing. Then there is the clutch treatise on the Buckeye site.
I'm still open to hearing about different problems folks have had with the Gunst bearing, I know I had mine but it was the use of a B&B clutch cover as the root cause. That issue was quickly resolved by doing another R&R of that beastly OD transmission, tossing the B&B, and fitting LUK components.
So it looks like a little further digging here has turned up one where the bearing carrier is hanging. That post indicated that an LUK clutch was used along with the dowels fitted. This is a problem area in general on TRs, so it may or may not be related to bearing. So far that one and a mention of a bad batch of bearings (with no complaints about installed bearings going out) is all I've seen with proper fitment and compatible components. I'm not saying that there aren't more out there. What I am saying is that since you guys have hinted (rather strongly in Don's case based on the use of almost all caps) that the Gunst bearing is a problem child in and of itself (not related to incompatible components or other self inflicted installation issues), share the information that you have with the rest of us. I'm always open to being educated on a topic.
|Others have had similar problems with that bearing and I don't recall the names or situations as at the time Paul's explanation seem to stick and I put it in my memory bank not to use this combination.|
I have also heard that BPNW's has one of the better clutch set ups out there
|DNK Don Kelly|
Unfortunately, what I read was some time ago, they weren't very good reviews but I simply would not know where to look now. I think I read some bad reviews around the time I was buying clutch components, wrote them off as being not worth the trouble and forgot about them - until now. So my thinking was much the same as Don's but I will dig around and see if I can come up with anything
|Don, just to clarify:|
You were aware of Paul's problem (I had held back identifying him earlier) and aware that others had similar problems. Based on what Paul had posted, then I would also qualify as one of those "others" that you mention. Is this a fair understanding?
He and I had a problem because we used an incompatible component mix, the B&B clutch cover with a Gunst bearing. Was the "other others" similar problem related to using the B&B clutch cover? If so, same thing, old news, if not then it sure would be nice to know "hey, what's up with that?" If you or Bob can come with anything on other issues, please put 'em in. Bob, perhaps your clutch purchase timing is related to the bad batch I heard mentioned but couldn't find any info on.
Fortunately (knowing what I learned after the fact), in my case there was an issue related to clutch engagement/disengagement that caused me to tear things down before there was any damage done to either of the components. Based on what I saw scuffing wise, it appeared that the bearing face was essentially rocking on the curved fingers of the B&B cover interfering with the clutch operation.
I did some digging on the situation and noted there was something new on the Gunst site saying don't use with a B&B clutch cover and that they recommended the LUK stuff. A phone call and credit card later resulted in this guy in a brown truck delivering an LUK clutch set (straight fingers, no curve). Fitted the LUK stuff and the Gunst bearing, problem solved. I can tell you though that LUK clutch set up requires a not bad but noticeably higher level of pedal effort, then again that kind of goes with the territory as the clamping force of the clutch cover increases.
|Have heard of the harder pressures the LUK needed.|
I am corrected on the new set up and I will keep my ears open to other people using the set up instead of the usual shutting down when I hear the word GUNST
Appreciate the clarification Steve and I consider you one of the more knowledgeable on this site.
Way more than me.
I usually defer to you
|DNK Don Kelly|
|Don, it makes me feel somewhat better in that most of it seems to be compatibility issues and that there is not some known impending doom awaiting. But I'm still open to education so if anyone hears something else and especially hears about it in replicate on multiple vehicles, please post 'em up.|
After all, forewarned is forarmed...
but four armed is halfway to an octopus.
This thread was discussed between 15/09/2013 and 18/09/2013
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