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Triumph TR6 - Convertible Top R&R

Getting ready to R&R the top for the first time and noticed that the rear of the existing top is fastened to the angle plate on the deck with screws through male metal snaps. Is this the way it's supposed to be? Shouldn't I instead rivet black plastic studs to the plate and snap the rear of the new top to them?

Thanks for all your help.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

If I understand you question correctly, the convertible top is secured by the factory to the tub by black plastic male snaps which are riveted to the angle bracket of which you speak. I think the angle bracket was also coated with adhesive. The angle bracket is bolted to the tub. The base of the snap holds the top in place. The plastic snaps often broke, and were replaced with metal snaps. Previously, someone has replaced the snaps, probably when the top was replaced, and chose to use screws.
The snaps themselves are not used to snap the top on - they are used to secure the top cover and the tonneau cover and go outside of the top fabric.

I hope you get real good at this - you can come to Virginia in 2005 and help me replace mine. Let me know of any trials and tribulations regarding gluing the top and fitting problems.
Bob

Rick,
Bob is right about the rivets through male snaps on the bolted down rear plate. I did this job last spring
with no major problems. There is a tech tip for installation at www.motorhead.com which I read but did not follow precisely.
Here are some points I think should be noted. It's important to have the exact center of the top at the rear attachment. After attaching the riveted portion, I installed the snaps closest to the door openings to be sure that the flaps extended into the door opening properly when closed. Basically the whole job is gluing the front of the top down because you have to get it right the first time (obviously). You need a warm day so you can stretch it just right, not to tight, not to loose. Use short rivets to attache the weather strip channel on front bar so they dont poke through on the good side.

And now, its MILLER TIME! Good luck!!
Rick Warren

So as I understand your feedback, the fastening procedure for the rear angle is to (1) attach a male snap to the top and (2) rivet through the center of the male snap to the rear angle. What size rivets are used? Aluminum or stainless? When this procedure is completed, the rear of the top cannot be unsnapped from the angle, but the hoodstick cover/tonneau can be snapped on. I can handle that. I'll check the Motorhead site for other details. I don't think I need to wait for warmer weather as I'm installing a Stayfast cloth top. I've done this before on a much more difficult project ('71 bug convertible--glass window frame to fit, foam pad, headliner, wooden bows).

Thanks for your help.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Rick- What happened to the steering column work did you finish it or put it on hold?
Don K
DON KELLY

Rick,
Over 2 years ago I replaced my top. The previous owner had started replacing the interior and I couldn't tell if it was tan, light tan, or biscuit. I called Johnson Tops and they had me send a piece of the material and then fashioned a top to match. It's been a long time but I think their page is http://www.autotops.com/ I was very happy with the material, color, and the helpful professional manner in which I was treated. They were also lowest priced. The top came with no snaps, so I had to fiqure where to put them, as well as how to dissassemble the front and rear pieces. You also have to fit it right the first time as you have to cut it to fit on the front bow. I purchased a snap installation kit from a marine parts store that slips on a pair of vise grips. It's not a bad job, it just takes nerve.
Joe Justice
Joe Justice

Don--I ordered the steering column bushing kit from TRF yesterday. That job will definately be on hold waiting for the weather to improve. Way too cold to fight a column! With the column project, the new top, looking for LED gauge lamps, rebuilding/polishing a spare set of Stromberg, and getting the new wheels, I've got plenty on my plate!

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Hi Rick

Gauge your holes for size. If rusted or worn go oversize. Aluminum aircraft rivets are good . Most problems are related to the actual rivet gun. The cheaper ones do not give enough bang to properly set the rivet in an even slightly loose hole. Most times you have to reset the gun to get a final snap. Bulge is wrong too much taper allowing rivet to work loose.

Bill
Bill Brayford

Rick hecked out the LED light website very intriguing. Let me know what type you used. I saved the website in my Triumph files in my mailbox.
Don K.
DON KELLY

Don--I have to measure the bulb base diameter. If it's 5mm, then I'll get the LED with the greatest intensity, which is aqua green (SF200-0AG-014P). But at $9.50 a pop, you're talking quite an expense to relamp the entire gauge cluster (8 lamps on a '72). I may also consider removing the lamp filters from the tach/speedo too. In the ballpark with halogen, but without the meltdown.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Bill-What's the difference between aircraft rivets and the ones I can get at the hardware store? What sizes? Can the same size be used for all the studs, even the ones on the rear angle? Thanks.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

While on the issue of the top - remember, it's only the rear bracket that the back of the top gets riveted to. The portion of the top with side curtains gets female snaps - the male snaps are riveted to the body. The advantage of rivets v. screws is that rivets are not supposed to become loose and fall out. And an aluminum rivet won't rust. Regarding plastic v. metal snaps - my '73 came with plastic snaps - when they broke, I replaced them with metal. I prefer the metal, but plastic is original. Also, the black plastic snaps are less visible than chromed metal snaps.
As was mentioned in another response, check the hole size - someone may have enlarged the holes by using the screws.
Finally, check the diagrams in The Roadster Factory's schematics. You may find that some snaps are indeed secured with screws, but I believe that this is only true of snaps inside the vehicle, like the ones used to secure the top cover on the B-pillar and the interior panel that covers the gas tank. I was never able to get my top cover to attach to these plastic snaps, and the metal ones seemed to hold better.
TRF has kits of snaps and rivets available which may help.
For securing snaps to the top along the windows, I prefer the jaws that you can put on a pair of vice grips to flare the stud, but the simple punch and plate (available at marine supply stores) also works. Since boats use a lot of snaps, you can find a pretty good assortment of snaps and rivets at marine stores - you'll also be able to find high quality snaps (brass with thick chrome plating) that are very nice.
Aircraft quality aluminum rivets are a higher quality of aluminum - more holding power. They can be considered overkill for convertible top snaps, which are low stress items, but still nice (MORE POWER! syndrome). For a top, about the only way a rivet can pull out is if the hole is too large for the rivet. Proper size matching is important, because the rivet will only bulge as small amount as the head is drawn in. If the hole is too large, the rivet doesn't get a proper wedge.
Bob

The aircraft grade non-structural blind rivets generally tend to take harder pulls and use a threaded post into the tooling. You also have a greater choice in the head shape of the rivet, flush head, protruding head etc. For the purposes of holding down the plastic snaps, I think that the pull force on those rivets might be sufficient to break the snaps. In this application of holding down the snaps, securing the hood webbing, and such, I see no reason to recommend any of the aerospace stuff like the MS20605, NAS1919, etc. Stick with the normal hardware store stuff as far as these rivits are concerned.
SteveP

Hi All

Yep overkill. Overkill will prevent doing the job twice. And driving around with the flaps banging in your ear. If you believe that top is a low stress item. Try not latching the locks properly and have it come open at 60? Yeh that loud bang is lift. Same as an aircraft wing.

If your using the plastic snaps use any rivet the plastic just breaks anyway. If you have a AAmco type top thats quite heavy and tends to stiffen when its below +80 use the metal snaps with the pads to protect the paint and a "good quality rivet" no you do not need helicopter grade. I use the term to make people think quality. Get from someplace like Fastenall, Nut and Bolt supply whatever. If you choose Walmart type offshore grade you will be replacing them on a regular basis. The same applies to the tool. $10.99 for the whole works does not cut it. Cheap ones do not set bulge the rivet properly at least in my experience. No compound advantage.

I have the original Tonneau cover. When I decide to use it on a clear cool day I usually have to pull like hell to get it locked down. Living in Canada a clear cool day is not +80. Same applies to my top cover.

Bill



Bill Brayford

My gripe is the quality of the tops. The last one I installed 2 years ago didn't fit right (rear window was up too high & the frame bar likes to drop into the clear vinyl). Also, all the snaps could be fastened when purchased, but now, even on a hot day, they can't. I think a "green" plasticiser was used and it's evaporated out so the top has shrunk.

So - anyone have experience with the Sunfast cloth top? It sure looks interesting.

Brent
Brent B

The use of the words "low stress" was relative with respect to the engineering characteristics of the materials used and other materials available. What I was trying to say was that the level of strength required of the rivet to secure a snap for a convertible top is far less than would be required a critical application. In fact, IF I was to drive around without properly securing the latches, I probably would appreciate a snap that would fail at the rivet when my top blew off, rather than tearing the top if the snaps themselves did not seperate. However, even a cheap rivet "should" have vastly greater tensile strength than the cloth/vinyl top. And my only experience with a flapping side curtain was due to the snap failure - not due to a rivet pulling out. Replacing the female snap cured the problem (I was already using metal snaps). Enlarged holes are a seperate issue, requiring the proper diameter rivet. It is possible to use a special washer on the inside when the hole is enlarged - I've only done that when I had to rivet an identification plate to a plastic case for a nuclear gauge. The washer prevented the rivet from pulling through the plastic.

Regardless, I think we all agree that quality components should be appropriately used. If you feel aircraft quality is necessary - go for it.

I do like Bill's idea of the snap pads - where did you get your's? I haven't seen any suppliers.
Bob

Brent--I used Haartz Stayfast canvas on a Bug convertible project years ago and it is excellent material, both looks and durability. I had the top on the bug for ten years and it still looked new. However, the cloth doesn't have any "give", so you must be extra careful where you cut or poke holes. I'm awaiting my new Stayfast top any day now and will report later on the install on my six. Is anyone aware of a URL for detailed top install instructions?

The "snap pads" are included in the top install kit sold by TRF. Of course, it's on backorder.

One last time: the rear of the top gets riveted to the angle with male studs, correct?

Thanks all.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Your Question:
One last time: the rear of the top gets riveted to the angle with male studs, correct?

Answer:
Yes. The rivet goes through the male stud, then through the fabric of the top, then through the bracket, and then clamped. Also, before you do this, make sure that the flange of the rivet fits inside of the center of the male snap - it should, but just check to make sure. Also, make sure that the top is centered on the bracket.

Good Luck (I'd send you photos of mine, but I've already removed the top and gutted the interior.)
Bob

Rick O
I put a new top on for the completion of the restore. The front bow is of more concern not the back. Gluing and getting just the right amount of stretch is more difficult. On the back bow: what you use for fastening the male snaps is your choice. Keep in mind that this is a "perminent" job. Bob B. said it right. INHO it is wise to use the metal male snaps rather than the plastic black ones. The reason I say this is because if one breaks (if you use plastic) then the bar has to be removed from the car to repair....not desirable. I chose the screw and nut to fasten the snap to the stiffening bar. I only wanted to do this once. With the tonneau, I also used the metal socket snap but used the black Button to keep the look of original. When the tonneau is in place you see all black buttons. One thing ya goota have is the snap tool that Joe J. mentions above. I have mentioned it before and again thank you Joe for the snap kit christmas present. This tool makes life so much more simpler. Install the snaps to the angle bar them mount the bar to the car. I used the black weather strip material between the bar and the body to keep out water and to act as protecter for body paint. With this snap tool kit all the rest of the snaps down the side windows and inside to the hood stick assembly can be installed WITHOUT having to keep putting the top on and off. Beleive me, this snap tool kit is worth its weight in gold!!! Thanks again Joe!! Now that you have the back done, have fun with the front.
Good luck Rick
Oh ya.. do not forget to put the webbing into the stiffening bar before you attach the bar to the body.
Rick Crawford

Rick C.- Welcome back to N. America
Don K.
DON KELLY

Removed the PO's top today and noticed there was absolutely no glue holding the top to the header bow. Is this how it's supposed to be? There really was nothing wrong with that part of the top to begin with, just wondering. If I don't have to glue, then that's one less thing to mess up.

The tracks securing the rubber seal for the header bow-to-windscreen frame were attached with an assortment of screws--are these supposed to be riveted?

Thanks all.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Rick O
No absolutely sure if top was originally glued or not. All I know is I glued mine in place then replaced the rubber seal tracks..and yes are to be pop rivited to front bow. I glued from the center then worked my way out one side at a time. 3M general trim adhesive is Gods gift to us.
Have fun
Rick C
Thanks Don K
Rick Crawford

Rick O
Forgot to mention that the pop rivet gun you will need is not the standard type. Most pop rivet gun- rivet holders are tapered. The style u need is the one where the rivet holders are round but not tapered. This style will fit into the narrow channel for the rubber and fit flat to the surface. Also have fun putting the rubber back in. My rubber was new and could not just "slide" it into the 3 tracks. I ended up putting one edge of the "T" ( the shape of the rubber that goes into the track) into one side of the track, then with a screwdriver and some light oil applied to the rubber "T" I worked the other edge in. Takes time to do but works.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Thanks for the rivet gun tip. Mine are flat as you describe, and I'll check to see the fit in the header bow channels. Bet that was why the PO used screws to begin with. Working on getting the new velcro strips on the the window rails. I wonder why Triumph didn't use a cable/spring assembly to keep the sides tight against the rails like most other convertibles.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

This question is for those WITHOUT the zippered rear curtain (window): does your top have a flap of material that snaps to the REAR bow?

Thanks.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

There was web address for a place in California in prior threads that sold cloth tops for a TR6 ... does anybody remember???
Jefff McLellan

Rick C.--To get into those narrow channels with the rivet gun, I'll slip a screw-on terminal (off a spark plugs) on the rivet shaft before inserting into the gun. Read that somewhere, and it should work well.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Rick O
Yes I read that also somewhere. Funny, mine fit OK without aid of spark plug top. I think I was 1/8" size rivet.
Since no one answered your WITHOUT question, allow me to take a shot at it. There is no difference between tops with or without the zipper window as to how they are attached to the rear stiffening bow. Both are the same. In neither case is the flap "snapped" to the bow. Both are attached permanently with (as discussed earlier) either pops or small screw and bolt ( using metal male snap!). I went the way of small screw and bolt as no way did I want to have a rivet fail ( ok, so I would have used stainless). The bow is then permanently bolted to the car. This is the factory original set up. This allowed the soft top to stay on the car and have your other 2 covers attach to the car. When I did the stowage cover snaps, I used the female metal snap and the visible button for the snap I used the ones that have the black coating on them...original look, and yes they are available in metal black. The only place I have plastic black snaps is at the 3 per side door snaps for the tonneau...original fitment. Oh Ya sorry the snaps inside the top at the bows are plastic male and female but again the metal coated black button.
Hope this answers your question.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Rick C--Perhaps you misunderstood my question. The bow I'm referring to (not where the top attaches to the rear deck) is the one right above the rear window. On my frame, there are I believe 5 snap studs riveted to the leading edge of that bow. There was a flap sewn in the bottom of my old top at that bow location with the requisite female snaps. I can only guess that snapping that flap on the bow would prevent the top from flapping when the rear window is unzipped. I received a new top with a fixed rear window (never really unzipped the other one anyway) and it does not have the flap. Thus, the reason for my question. Thanks.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Jeff,
These are the folks that have the cloth tops. I bought one last winter and had it installed by my local upholstery expert. Looks great.
Thanks,
Ashley http://www.caribou.cc/
Ashley

Jeff--Another reputable Stafast canvas source is http://aabestco.com/ in PA. More expensive than Caribou, but much less expensive than the Big 3 (& LBBCo). If a 5 year materials & workmanship warranty is important to you (Caribou's is one year), I recommend them.

Good luck.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Rick O
Yup...a misunderstanding. You are correct in the top attachment there. I kept with the plastic snaps as the ones rivited to the bow where plastic. Do we have a case of " cutting corners to save money (cost)"? The flap is suppose to be there....I think. I would question your supplier. Yes anti-flap. Also the front bow attachment is with a flap...do you also have this flap missing?? My NEW top, with reflective strip and zip window, came with both flaps (MOSS # 640-150). I just looked at the TRF green Plate GM and it does not mention the snaps on the bows. Does anyone know the story behind the bow snaps??
Let us know...this is intersting and might save someone else some grief.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Rick C.--I've confirmed that when you don't have the zippered rear curtain, there is no reason to have a flap for the rear bow. Yes, I have the flap for the front bow.

Rick O.
Rick O.

See, you do learn something every day.
Makes sence to me.
Rick Crawford

Ashley & Rick - thanks for the links to caribou & aabest! I hadn't heard of them. Both are hundreds $$ less than the Sunfast, and should last many years with the way I treat tops. And much nicer than todays vinyl!

Brent
Brent B

Thanks in part to all your help, the stayfast top is finished! To others like Brent who may want to do this themselves, here's a fine Reidel instruction on the process (it's a hidden link):

http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/TR6Top/TR6SoftTop.htm

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

This thread was discussed between 15/01/2003 and 04/02/2003

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